What makes someone homosexual?

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Mat said:
I don't agree with everything that's been said in this thread by either side of the debate but just had to chime in here.

so you dont agree with the facts i presented from the American Psychological Association? that pretty much OBLITERATES any argument that sexual orientation is determined by "CHOICE"...and there are at least TWO people in this thread who think /claim that homosexuality is simply a choice.

im TOO THROUGH with arguing the nuances of such a callous generalization..which is why i took the time to find those facts from the APA and post them.
 
Spellbinder it is a choice, I disagree with the American Psychological Association,
and so do other Pyschologists.

Homosexuality is a choice, and it's wrong. No matter how many pro homosexual agenda articles you guys quote, no matter how folks try to reason it. I am not a homophobe, and I don't hate homosexuals, it's just wrong PERIOD. There are people who use your same logic to justify molesting children and other evils as well.

Just doesn't fly with me . . .

Spellbinder said:
so you dont agree with the facts i presented from the American Psychological Association? that pretty much OBLITERATES any argument that sexual orientation is determined by "CHOICE"...and there are at least TWO people in this thread who think /claim that homosexuality is simply a choice.

im TOO THROUGH with arguing the nuances of such a callous generalization..which is why i took the time to find those facts from the APA and post them.

Those aren't facts from the APA that's SOME not all of their member's opinion,
opinion stated as fact doesn't make it so.
 
ZorCrow said:
Spellbinder it is a choice, I disagree with the American Psychological Association,
and so do other Pyschologists.

Homosexuality is a choice, and it's wrong. No matter how many pro homosexual agenda articles you guys quote, no matter how folks try to reason it. I am not a homophobe, and I don't hate homosexuals, it's just wrong PERIOD. There are people who use your same logic to justify molesting children and other evils as well.

Just doesn't fly with me . . .



Those aren't facts from the APA that's SOME not all of their member's opinion,
opinion stated as fact doesn't make it so.

You are precisely the type of influence that brought about the Crusades, the Dark Ages, and every other known period of persecution known to man.

Homosexuality is a choice? How do you know? You say friends "switched" sides? Really? You call it choosing, I call it supression, as would any other psychologist. The "practices" associated with "liberating" yourself and "becoming straight" are as repulsive as they are damaging..akin to brainwashing a person.

Who CARES if it's biological? It's CERTAINLY not some easy choice a person makes. Even to the most conservative, it's undeniable that a tremendous amount of experiences would have to have influenced a person's sexuality, if not considering the former. So what do you propose? Homosexuals "erase" their past? Their memories? Their experiences?

Your argument is as ludacris as it is incohesive.

Homosexuality in itself is not wrong. It is not damaging. It is not corrosive to society. The most brilliant societies of the world, as Farrah mentioned, lived with homosexuality. The FOUNDATION of our knowledge -- the Gupta Dynasty, the Greeks, the Romans... all of them had no qualms.

No one "uses this same logic". Molesting someone is a CRIME. What other evil? Infact, was it not your own mouth that stated ANYTHING can be used to evil ends -- but that doesn't make it inherently evil? i.e. Christianity. Following your CURRENT course of logic, we should BAN Christianity because countless (and infact, more numerous than any other influence in history) evils were committed on account of God.

You have closed your ears to all reason, as inquisitors did during Spain's period of persecution. Your argument, Zorcrow, in all of it's inanity:

"Homosexuality is wrong because it is wrong."
 
Very Simply

When they tell you that they are.

The person can have traits, inclinations, experiences, etc..

If they haven't accepted & embraced it for themselves then they aren't.

We are the only ones who can look in the mirror and define what we are.

Judgements can be made, or passed, but it doesn't mean that they are accurate.

Homosexuality is a choice, and it's wrong. No matter how many pro homosexual agenda articles you guys quote, no matter how folks try to reason it. I am not a homophobe, and I don't hate homosexuals, it's just wrong PERIOD. There are people who use your same logic to justify molesting children and other evils as well.

Wrong for you!

Right for others.

As long as the wrong for you doesn't involve violent actions, prejudicial politics, or harm....chill...

I think it's wrong for people to gorge themselves silly in eating contests.
I think it's wrong for MTV to show crap all day instead of quality music videos..

As long as the what I think stays in my little world & i don't go visiting the MTV building with molotov coctails, or the eating contest with a 36" Easton to bash the gluttonous winner, then fine..

I couldn't for my lifetime change your view, nor you mine.
We can however agree to co-exist on the same globe without violence..

This is all most of the gay peeps i know want.
Not warm fuzzies, nor acceptance, nor condescension.

Just to be left alone to enjoy the life that's been given them without comment.
 
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This is just ridiculous.. Zorcrow... you couldn't CHOOSE to be gay if you wanted to because your ass is repulsed by homosexuality, so you are telling me that you could CHOOSE to suck dick? You couldn't, it is something that you just can't do because every fiber in your body would be telling you it's not right...

It's NOT weak, Zorcrow at ALL. The only thing that separates ANY people from each other is SKIN. You still go through the same things, suffer through the same things, lose jobs because of what you are, are persecuted for what you are, and KILLED for what you are.. I mean are you just IGNORANT or do you not see that happening? I mean come on! You are always saying that Christians are wrongly persecuted and what not, but you wouldn't STOP being a Christian because it's who you ARE would you? So what if you believe it's a choice, PREJUDICE IS PREJUDICE!

prej·u·dice ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (pr
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n.

    1. <LI type=a>An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.
    2. A preconceived preference or idea.
  1. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See Synonyms at predilection.
  2. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.
  3. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others.

ZorCrow said:
Also, Prophet on the RPMB I asked the men and women, the same question "Could you date someone who's bisexual or who used to be gay."

The Women said with one accord NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I am sorry but WHY the fuck would you use a BOARD that is probably the MOST racist and bigotted board I have ever heard of to back you up? Do you have a screw loose? Aren't you always complaining about how they hate you because you like women of different colors.. Hmmm.. doesn't it hurt to be hated for something you have no control over.. like attraction...?
 
Prophet your response is ridcolous . . . PEOPLE CHOOSE TO BE GAY, why fight it?
Why even make it an issue? So people don't choos anything anymore? Well a bunch of dudes with M.D.'s and Ph'D's say it isn't so, come on Prophet has common sense gone out the window here? Folks need to wake up, we need to put this radical gay agenda that is polluting the minds of so many Americans in check. No gay marriage, no special rights for gays and no gay adoption.

So when a person WHO USED TO BE GAY isn't gay anymore, (like many folks)
that means they are fighting nature or genetics? Come on . .. get outta here with that mess. And any one, any one who compares being gay with being Black is totally out of line. It's not the same thing, no where near it.
 
the end

round and round we go..... there are people here not being open minded AT ALL...and rather than look at the situation with an objective point of view...religion, and closeminded rhetoric is used to minimize and dehumanize gay people.

Zorcrow, black people do not corner the market on being mistreated, misunderstood and discriminated against. if you didnt know it before...KNOW IT NOW...and if that is too hard for you to understand, then you really DO fit in with those misfits on RPMB.

women, jews, asians, indians (indigenous to america), arabs, and many OTHER minorities have been discriminated against, mistreated, killed and the like...and what do these groups, along with gays have in common with blacks? THEY ALL WENT THROUGH SOME FORM OF PERSECUTION FOR BEING WHO THEY ARE ...

if this thread degenerates any further......im closing this thread because this isnt getting anywhere...no one is willing to read and LEARN anything.
 
I'm going back on everything I said about homosexuality being a choice. Yes I am going to contradict myself but I got to thinking, for as long as I can remember I have been attracted to women. I never sat down one day and decided what I prefered I simply knew it was inside me. I guess my ingnorance in dismissing homosexuality was because I didn't understand how or why... but how can anyone truly explain why they are attracted to some things and nmot the other.

I am seeing Zorcrow's point from the angle that being gay isn't natural (I'm not personally saying it isn't natural). I'm guessing that some (maybe Zorcrow I can't speak for him) believe that all where born hetrosexual and at some point decided that they prefered the same sex. If this was the case then yes they chose to be homosexual.

But there are flaws within that view because many would say that that person was always gay to begin with. They were just taught that they had to like the opposite sex through cultural and social means. At the time when they began to explore their sexuality and sexual prefrences (like many of us do) their nature guided them to their natural desires, which is to be gay.

From that perspective I don't think it is right to say that gay people made a choice to be gay, I didn't choose to be straight (Lets look at this retrospectively, Zorcrow did you choose to be Hetrosexual?).

So why can't they have the same equal rights that straight people have. Becuase they don't share the same desires as a straight person. Thats short sighted it's just their sexuality, being gay doesn't mean that they are bad people it just means that they have a different sexual practice to hetrosexuals. They are not forcing their views down the throats of everyone so why is it wrong?

The question of gay marriage is a good issue because I see marriage as declaring your love in the eyes of the lord. Marriage has always been associated with someform of religion. I don't see how gay people can get married as their union is an affornt to the lord. I have problems with the idea of getting married because I am not religious so I wonder why gay people would want to do this.

What is everyones thoughts on homosexuals being able to adopt a child?
 
Homosexuals did not choose they path they went down. Its like i never choose the path of being straight. Its all natural. As to DonDaddyD's question of adopting a child and supporting it, i would say why not. If the have the parenting quality then go ahead. Though the child may need to be taught to understand the situation so he/she does not go resenting this in the future. It may be hard as the child may often ask why does every one have a mummy and daddy while i have 2 daddies or 2 mummies. But in my opinion if the child can be taught to understand, then they should be able to raise a kid.
 
ZorCrow, how can you claim not to be a homophobe and then state so simply and definitively that homosexuality is wrong? To compare it to molesting children and "other evils" is to pronounce yourself as homophobic as it comes, as far as I'm concerned. You are condemning people as evil based on a personal characteristic that affects them and no other; way out of line.

Just because you see it as wrong does not make it so; no-one appointed you judge and jury for sexual matters. I say, if it's what they want, then let them go for it.

I certainly can't see why gay marriage and marital rights shouldn't be granted; they are human beings, and equal as any under the law, and should be treated as such. Even if the reactionary, archaic religious bodies won't allow it, there should be no reason on earth why the civil authorities can't marry them as they do more "traditional" couples.
 
I AM NOT A HOMOPHOBE, saying "Homosexuality is a sin, and Homosexuality is wrong and also Homosexauls should not adopt kids or have legal marriage" is not homophobia.
It's disagreeing with folks getting special rights because of their sexual CHOICES.

So Anne Heche who was homosexual and now heterosexual didn't choose? So Ann had her choices wrong????? Come on reality throws all these psuedo arguments out even the APA's wack statement. Seriously, if thousands of people who were gay are now straight and folks who were straight are now gay, guess what? You can change
then it's not super nature it's choice.

I guess no one believes in Free Will anymore eh? We are all robots . . . . . so free will doesn't exist anymore due to DNA, that means that DNA is more powerful than your will so one can argue before a court that he/she murdered folks because of DNA not because of choice? That argument will land one in JAIL!!!! BECAUSE IT'S RIDCOLOUS!!!

Think folks . . .

Also, I don't believe in violence against homosexuals, I don't believe,
in homosexuals being fired for being gay, I don't believe that homosexuals SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED to serve in the military, or even have a gay president. Homosexuals should be able to due everything every one else does in our world except these things

1. Be Clergy in the Christian, Islamic and Jewish faiths (were homosexuality IS A SIN)
2. Get Married
3. Adopt Children

I have gay relatives, gay co workers and a gay neighbor whom I care about,
I don't have to agree with someone's life choices to love them.

Also as for "gay pride/lesbian pride" parades, cut that mess out, I don't want to see straight people half naked, near naked grinding on each other and making it out in public either."
 
ZorCrow said:
I AM NOT A HOMOPHOBE, saying "Homosexuality is a sin, and Homosexuality is wrong and also Homosexauls should not adopt kids or have legal marriage" is not homophobia.
It's disagreeing with folks getting special rights because of their sexual CHOICES.

So Anne Heche who was homosexual and now heterosexual didn't choose? So Ann had her choices wrong????? Come on reality throws all these psuedo arguments out even the APA's wack statement. Seriously, if thousands of people who were gay are now straight and folks who were straight are now gay, guess what? You can change
then it's not super nature it's choice.

I guess no one believes in Free Will anymore eh? We are all robots . . . . . so free will doesn't exist anymore due to DNA, that means that DNA is more powerful than your will so one can argue before a court that he/she murdered folks because of DNA not because of choice? That argument will land one in JAIL!!!! BECAUSE IT'S RIDCOLOUS!!!

Think folks . . .

Also, I don't believe in violence against homosexuals, I don't believe,
in homosexuals being fired for being gay, I don't believe that homosexuals SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED to serve in the military, or even have a gay president. Homosexuals should be able to due everything every one else does in our world except these things

1. Be Clergy in the Christian, Islamic and Jewish faiths (were homosexuality IS A SIN)
2. Get Married
3. Adopt Children

I have gay relatives, gay co workers and a gay neighbor whom I care about,
I don't have to agree with someone's life choices to love them.

Also as for "gay pride/lesbian pride" parades, cut that mess out, I don't want to see straight people half naked, near naked grinding on each other and making it out in public either."

Don't give me that bullshit.

According to the dictionary, homophobia is an an irrational hatred, disapproval, or fear of homosexuality, gay and lesbian people, and their culture

In your case, it's the hatred and disapproval. So not homophobic? No, you are.

Moving on.

Anne Heche did not "switch", you sad excuse for reliable information. She has stated that she's neither straight nor gay nor bisexual, has had chronic episodes of mental illness, and in my opinion, is bisexual. "Pseudo" arguments? Is that what you call logical arguments?

"Guess what". Just because people state that they have "converted", by no stretch of the imagination does that mean they HAVE. Infact, studies have shown that these "converted" people still have homosexual feelings, but have been taught to surpress them. To quote roughly from one "self-help" website, members recall "whenever feeling something towards the same sex, just pushing it away into the back of my mind".


You're ARGUMENT is ridiculous. THINK before you SPEAK. Murdering someone is not GENETIC. It's an action, first of all. Some personality traits can provoke murderous intentions, but personality is personality. Sexuality is sexuality. They are two diffferent things. You're being fallacious.

I don't really care if a gay person wants to be in the clergy or not. Religion is subjective. Marriage is NOT. Adoption is NOT. You think marriage is some "holy union between a man and a woman"? Really? Do I have to remind you that people like Britney Spears were still allowed to remarry, despite the fact they married and divorced another person within the span of a day? Is that you're idea of some holy union? Are you aware divorce rates are at an all time high? Or that we live in the 21st century, and that simply arguing that marriages have "always" been this way is fallacious as well?

The paranoia of gay adoptions has also been dealt with; countless books testify to the stability of a child within gay adoption. The arguments against these adoptions are simply ridiculous. Should we disallow poor parents from adopting? Unintelligent parents? Ugly parents? Theoretically, all three types of parents can be ruinuous to a child's environment.. when in reality, these factors alone are not.

If you don't want to see something, then don't. But don't you DARE impede upon the liberties of your fellow man.
 
I would like to know Zorcrow where does it state in the manual of freewill that apparently we are all missing the copy of that being Gay is wrong? Freewill which is the only God or Nature or Universal how ever you wanna look at it right doesnt resitrict homosexuality, so how is it wrong? Or is it just your opinion that its wrong? Have you tried it? Have you experianced it? Do you know for a fact that its wrong through personal experiance with the maker of all creation and the freewill that gives people the ability to do it? It doesnt directly or indirectly affect you so why judge it? It doesnt take a man and a woman to raise a child because men have done it themselves and so have women so them not having kids is ridiculous. Awnser this question, if the standard was different and homosexuality was rampant and the norm would you go with it even if you liked females as you do now?
 
Bane said:
Don't give me that bullshit.

According to the dictionary, homophobia is an an irrational hatred, disapproval, or fear of homosexuality, gay and lesbian people, and their culture

In your case, it's the hatred and disapproval. So not homophobic? No, you are.

Moving on.

Anne Heche did not "switch", you sad excuse for reliable information. She has stated that she's neither straight nor gay nor bisexual, has had chronic episodes of mental illness, and in my opinion, is bisexual. "Pseudo" arguments? Is that what you call logical arguments?

"Guess what". Just because people state that they have "converted", by no stretch of the imagination does that mean they HAVE. Infact, studies have shown that these "converted" people still have homosexual feelings, but have been taught to surpress them. To quote roughly from one "self-help" website, members recall "whenever feeling something towards the same sex, just pushing it away into the back of my mind".


You're ARGUMENT is ridiculous. THINK before you SPEAK. Murdering someone is not GENETIC. It's an action, first of all. Some personality traits can provoke murderous intentions, but personality is personality. Sexuality is sexuality. They are two diffferent things. You're being fallacious.

I don't really care if a gay person wants to be in the clergy or not. Religion is subjective. Marriage is NOT. Adoption is NOT. You think marriage is some "holy union between a man and a woman"? Really? Do I have to remind you that people like Britney Spears were still allowed to remarry, despite the fact they married and divorced another person within the span of a day? Is that you're idea of some holy union? Are you aware divorce rates are at an all time high? Or that we live in the 21st century, and that simply arguing that marriages have "always" been this way is fallacious as well?

The paranoia of gay adoptions has also been dealt with; countless books testify to the stability of a child within gay adoption. The arguments against these adoptions are simply ridiculous. Should we disallow poor parents from adopting? Unintelligent parents? Ugly parents? Theoretically, all three types of parents can be ruinuous to a child's environment.. when in reality, these factors alone are not.

If you don't want to see something, then don't. But don't you DARE impede upon the liberties of your fellow man.

Bane we impede "liberties" all the time it's called the law, and the law is according to the defense of marriage act signed by Bill Clinton that the Federal government only recognizes marriage between one man and one woman.

Get over it Bane, gays don't deserve the previlige of marriage,
clergy, and adoption. That's what I stated, that's what I believe. Anne Heche made a choice, Anne Heche can call herself a green moon beam that doesn't make her one, by definition that were posted by those in this post,
Anne Heche who lives and has sex and is married to a MAN is heterosexual,
she's not longer homosexual and many, many others have made that choice either by faith or by own personal choices.

Jenna Jameson at one time was homosexual, now she's living with a guy,
guess what is she now biseuxal? What is she? She's STRAIGHT!! You see Bane in the real world we have definintions, we have clear lines of right and wrong and homosexuality is wrong.

Greatness said:
I would like to know Zorcrow where does it state in the manual of freewill that apparently we are all missing the copy of that being Gay is wrong? Freewill which is the only God or Nature or Universal how ever you wanna look at it right doesnt resitrict homosexuality, so how is it wrong? Or is it just your opinion that its wrong? Have you tried it? Have you experianced it? Do you know for a fact that its wrong through personal experiance with the maker of all creation and the freewill that gives people the ability to do it? It doesnt directly or indirectly affect you so why judge it? It doesnt take a man and a woman to raise a child because men have done it themselves and so have women so them not having kids is ridiculous. Awnser this question, if the standard was different and homosexuality was rampant and the norm would you go with it even if you liked females as you do now?

What kind of stupid question is that? Serioiusly, I like chicks because I like chicks, I like black women, white women, asian women, latin women, I like good looking women period. I don't care if the whole world wants to jump to hell that's fine, I ain't following them.

Stop trying to play logic games with me, they don't work. Logic is this
you stick two men on an island with life sources but no other human beings and in 150 years they are extinct, the same for two women, now put one man and one woman on that island and in 150 years you got a nation . .

Also, that line from earlier about men and women raising children as single parents, you do know that statistics and studies show that children do better with one male and one female parent, just because it can be done doens't mean it should be.
 
okay ive had it. IM CLOSING this thread. there are FAR MORE IMPORTANT THINGS TO BE DISCUSSING RIGHT NOW than THIS! Why dont you lot divert some of your posting energy to the HURRICANE discussion thread. thank you!
 
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