Feminism (take two)

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Lawless

Rising Star
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Feminism

What is the goal of feminism? Is it the woman’s right to chose her own path or is it about having equal power? I ask only in the context that some feminist look down upon women who wish to be housewives and/or stay at home moms etc, on the premise that in filling that ‘role’ they set back the Women’s Movement. Is the goal of feminism an aggressive pursuit of money, power, etc equal to what men have, or is about the right to choose which way a woman decides to live her life? Without focusing on specific goals only because I know they’re will be a variety of answers, but the overall goal.
 
Foxfire
Foxfire
great idea for a thread. this will surely bring debate to the board.
Karma
Karma
good topic of discussion. you didnt post it with a negative slant...you asked a genuine question. i like that.
Lawless said:
What is the goal of feminism? Is it the woman’s right to chose her own path or is it about having equal power? I ask only in the context that some feminist look down upon women who wish to be housewives and/or stay at home moms etc, on the premise that in filling that ‘role’ they set back the Women’s Movement. Is the goal of feminism an aggressive pursuit of money, power, etc equal to what men have, or is about the right to choose which way a woman decides to live her life? Without focusing on specific goals only because I know they’re will be a variety of answers, but the overall goal.
Click to expand...

Good questions, Lawless. :nod: :p I'm not worldly known much on this topic except a few general facts. But I did find a nice defination on Feminism, how each women feel about it, what they support, reject.

Feminism is a diverse collection of social theories, political movements, and moral philosophies, largely motivated by or concerning the experiences of women. Most feminists are especially concerned with social, political, and economic inequality between men and women; some have argued that gendered and sexed identities, such as "man" and "woman," are socially constructed. Feminists differ over the sources of inequality, how to attain equality, and the extent to which gender and sexual identities should be questioned and critiqued. Thus, as with any ideology, political movement or philosophy, there is no single, universal form of feminism that represents all feminists.
Feminist political activists commonly campaign on issues such as reproductive rights (including but not limited to the right to choose a safe, legal abortion, access to contraception, and the availability of quality prenatal care), violence within a domestic partnership, maternity leave, equal pay, sexual harassment, street harassment, discrimination, and rape. Many feminists today argue that feminism is a grass-roots movement that seeks to cross boundaries based on social class, race, culture, and religion; is culturally specific and addresses issues relevant to the women of that society (for example female genital cutting in Africa or the glass ceiling in developed economies); and debate the extent to which certain issues, such as rape, incest, and mothering, are universal. Themes explored in feminism include patriarchy, stereotyping, objectification, sexual objectification, and oppression.


Subtypes of feminism



There are plenty other fasinating articles I found on Wikipedia for this topic. The link to the topic is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism







I personally feel that these women want equality
but they also want men to succumb to their will, power, money, etc. I think these women are very passionate about their beliefs, thoughts, concerns, etc. I've never known a feminist to begrudge a woman for wanting to be a housewife, but I could be wrong. I think there are many times of Feminists and not all are alike, while others may be.

I wouldn't say these women are aggressive, I would say they have a passion for what they belief in and they are not afraid to let the world know.

I think if anything they try to educate the world and impower women all over the world. To realize we as women do have rights and "we're not going to take it anymore" motto.
 
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I haven't seen it a lot but I've known one to have outright contempt at the notion of it, but I 've known a couple of others to express mild criticism at the idea of women being housewives. I know there are different and varying degrees/philosophies as to the goal of the feminist movement, (by the way thanks for the links they'll make interesting readings), but I always thought that right to choose the life of the housewife/soccermom/etc or entrepenuer/moneymaker/etc as the core of tenet. I understand the derision when the woman leads that life because the man in her life say so or whatever, but if it's her actual desire I can't grasp why the criticism.

It's like an ex of mine that criticized me for not going to the Million Man March years ago as not supporting black men, cause you know as black man I have to support what every other black guy thinks is a good idea:shrug: . When to me I could not support a racist like Louis Farrakhan:stupid: . Or at the very least that is how he portrayed himself in the 90s.
 
From the FEMINIST point of view

<< shoves everyone out of the way and takes center stage>>

<< clears throat>> AHEM! :sure:

AS a card carrying Feminist (Member of the National Association of the Affairs of Woman) i would like to weigh in on this little topic of discussion (that i notice was started by a man)

Feminism serves to promote the idea (which is still considered "radical" by some men in this country) that a WOMAN CAN and SHOULD be able to do WHATEVER SHE WANTS. We deserve to have equal recognition and equal rights across the board. Allow us to attempt whatever we wish..whether it be in sports, military, the work place whatever. WOMEN have the right to decide their role...not have it DICTATED to us by men who wish to hold on to the dated, patriarchal views long held on to.

Therefore, if a woman CHOSE to be a "Home maker" (better term than "house wife") I, as a feminist, would not have a problem with that. as long as it was HER choice and it wasnt something she was FORCED into because of some religious or cultural idea or because that was a condition of a man being with her. :rolleyes: Women are not here to SERVE men, we are here to pursue our lives just as men do and what I DO have a problem with is when MEN try to suggest that certain types of women are BETTER or MORE PREFERABLE than others.

for example: a man saying that a "home maker" with a demure personality is BETTER than a CAREER oriented woman who is independent and lives her life on her terms....because the "home maker" is not going to "challenge" a man as much as a career oriented woman. or that women who dress more "traditional" are EASIER to take than a woman who pushes the envelope by dressing TRENDY , wearing higher hemlines etc.

the problem isnt FEMINISTS critcizing women who choose to be "home makers'...its MEN who create divides among women by promoting one "role" over the other because THEY feel that certain roles are EASIER for THEM to "take" than others.
 
Black Widow
Black Widow
Now THAT is a very spectacular addition to an otherwise DISMAL thread. An INTELLECTUAL woman's view. I agreed with everything I read...
Karma
Karma
excellent post. that article was heart warming even for ME to read (being more "hard line" i guess). its a rational, clear, fair perspective from a WOMAN's point of view.
that's actually SOFTER than my own personal view, but NO LESS ACCURATE by any means. that article is VERY fair and balanced i must say and it gives a CLEAR and RATIONAL definition of Feminism and the goals of that platform. everyone should take a moment to read it.

on a side note, i noticed the part about a bumper sticker that read: "feminism is the radicial notion that women are people" if i ever find that ..i want one for myself :nod:

:alert:NOTE: due to the fact that original "Feminism" thread was RUINED by some narrow minded, half assed remarks (some of which TOTALLY illustrated why Feminism was BORN IN THE FIRST PLACE)

[if you want to see MORE...read the last couple of pages in the shoutbox to get the reaction of some OTHER members on this board who AVOIDED the original "feminist" thread because of some of things being said].

I decided to take some of the essential posts from the thread and start again here in an attempt to revive what should have been a good topic of discussion

If you have a problem with the idea of Feminism or feel there is no need to discuss it in detail because you find there is no use for it...KINDLY DO NOT COME IN HERE AND DEAD END THIS THREAD WITH NARROW MINDED REMARKS. :alert:
 
I just want to bring up a single point that was raised in the last thread. That is "Men are stronger than Women" -- Eh, what does that actually have to do with society as a whole, whether it be true or false? Culture doesn't define people by their strenght, physical endurence, or anything else. If that were the case then, surely, someone stronger than George W. Bush would have become president of the US, no?
 
it (whose stronger than whom) doesnt have anything to do with anything with regards to Lawless' question posed in his opening post. the other thread really degenerated into a "tit for tat" type of thing.

alot of members (mostly women i might add) revealed that they AVOIDED this thread because certain posts were too infuriating. I'm not saying EVERY OTHER person who posted in the original thread was responsible...but lets face it..the thread really went off somewhere it shouldnt have.

Lawless just wanted to understand the "goal" of feminism NOT whether it was responsible for ruining society or if feminists were lesbians etc etc.
 
I don't know what to say, personally I don't think there is a need for such a movement. Justice shouldnt be limited to sex, ethnicity, religion, or socio-economic background. It should be blind. Women are equal creations to men and deserve the same rights we have.

The problem I believe is that things are strongly off balance when one doesnt respect the laws of nature. There are obviously things that are different between the sexes and these differences should be respected and nurtured based on these attributes. One difference however should not be highlighted as a means to make one feel superior to the other.

Differences should be respected in the context in which they exist. Balance is only achieved when one comes into and understands the Nature of their creation and act according to the roles and responsibilities espoused on that Nature.

In others words, if people acted according to the Nature in which God created them, we wouldnt have half the problems we have today.

Any man that believes himself to be superior to a woman is a fool.

As the Prophet of Islam(saw) stated "Paradise lies at the foot of the woman" and Allah(swt) stated in the Quran "Reverence the wombs that bore you"

And while you may not agree with my beliefs at least agree with the statements, because they surely are true.

"You can judge a Nation and a People by the way they treat their women" Elijah Muhammad
 
okay...i know that you're a reasonably intelligent man and you have an eye for detail in history, so please explain to me WHERE would women be NOW if it WERENT FOR FEMINISM? Think about what it was like for women in America in the 1800's and the early 1900's? we had NO RIGHTS, we were SECOND CLASS CITIZENS.

How would women be able to enjoy the freedom to pursue and shape our own lives AS WE SEE FIT without the efforts of feminism?

When a man states that "Feminism isnt needed"...THAT tells me right there that he has NO CONCEPT or understanding of what women have been through. This reaches even further back BEYOND America's "birth"...to the BURNING TIMES in Medieval Europe.

Furthermore..this ISNT A THREAD about "the differences between men and women" or "who has the advantage over whome" NOR is it a thread for a MAN to tell women what role she should occupy..the point of the thread is ASKING what is the GOAL of feminism. How can a MAN presume to tell WOMEN what our goal is?
 
Lawless, I think you should read the article that Olivia posted the link to. THAT is a prime breakdown of Feminism goals [as I PERSONALLY see them, and it will answer a great many of your questions.]

Osiris... I agreed with a LOT of what you said, except for this:

personally I don't think there is a need for such a movement. Justice shouldnt be limited to sex, ethnicity, religion, or socio-economic background. It should be blind. Women are equal creations to men and deserve the same rights we have.
Click to expand...

I think there shouldn't BE a need for the feminist movement --HOWEVER... the need IS there. If all men were to realize some of the things YOU have said.... then we would be in an entirely different place, wouldn't we? The truth is that there are still MANY men who oppose the feminist movement and STILL try to suppress women. Case in point: last year there was a professor at my college who aparently believed women dont make good pilots because we aren't as technically minded. [he taught a mechanics type course involving engines and such]. A girlfriend of mine took his course... and there was one point during the semester when they got a test back that she had some questions on. During the review of the test, she asked something or other about engine operation.... his response was something to the effect of "Well, you're a girl, I didnt expect you to understand." :eek3: You can bet she tore him a new one [as i would've done] AND he was subsequently asked to resign. Its men like THAT who create a need for a movement like THIS.
 
Im sorry ladies, I meant to write there shouldn't be a need for feminism.

I was talking to what the world would be like if their were Justice in it. Justice is only gained and maintained by those who are willing to pursue and fight for it.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
 
The Bellaonline article is interesting, if I’m interpreting it correctly. In that essentially the goal of feminism overall is the elimination of gender roles outside of obvious biological ones. While it seems a very reasonable goal, it is certainly ambitious, is it achievable?!? I mean will one day in formal society men will not rise from their seats when women enter a room, fell obligated to open doors, cry openly at movies. Women will take out the trash, kill bugs, fight on front line in war? I don’t mean for this to sound frivolous, these are just some the basic ‘gender’ based behavior that the sexes fill and off the top of my head for a reply. I think as a human society a lot of the things are certainly achievable, especially on a conventional basis (i.e workplace equality, taming Corporate agenda's, etc), but I wonder if some things are honest biologically imprinted behavior? I apologize for the original thread degenerating into the fiasco that it did.
 
While we are on the subject of what boy and girls are SUPPOSE to be doing... I believe that it is wrong to put a girl in a dress when she'd rather play football and climb tree. I think it is wrong to make boys play with gun when they'd rather play with dolls. Just because a girl plays with a truck and a boy plays with a doll doesn't make them any less of what they are... male and female. Yes boys and girls are different, but does that really count? There is no such thing as "gender based" behavior, because not everyone owns up to that generalization.

I was a tomboy growing up... I climbed trees, played football, dressed like a boy, got into fist fights with boys (And won), and did lots of "boy" things. But I was still a girl and by the time I hit puberty I started to do girly things. I still love to play sports and hang out with guys. Feminists want to make this possible and okay. For boy and girls to do what they truely want to do, and not what society pegs "appropriate" for them to do. That should be the individual's decision.

I found yet another article that explains my point:

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art36299.asp
 
Ah Yes, the goal or goals of feminism.

Since I am not a Feminist, but a realist I will answer this question in a limited yet honest manner.

SOME feminist what men and women to be treated equally.

SOME feminst want women to be treated batter than men.

The goal is equality, the rational and non radical feminists, want women not to be in bad relationship, not to feel less than a person, and not be denied of any rights in society.

Women are the largest minority group on earth and in many cultures and through out human history, women have been seen as property or folks who should only speak when spoken too.

I do agree with Osiris about the different roles men and women play in humanity. Those roles should be embraced.

I think the previous thread descended into "who's better" and that was childish. Even though I presented the facts, I presented them rather bluntly. We all know that The average man is stronger and has more muscle mass than the average woman. That is a fact. We also know that men and women perceive life differently.

These differences should be embraced.

Feminism should be about equality . . not about superiority nor about destroying the order of the family, or the risk of society at large.
 
Olivia Wilde said:
While we are on the subject of what boy and girls are SUPPOSE to be doing... I believe that it is wrong to put a girl in a dress when she'd rather play football and climb tree. I think it is wrong to make boys play with gun when they'd rather play with dolls. Just because a girl plays with a truck and a boy plays with a doll doesn't make them any less of what they are... male and female. Yes boys and girls are different, but does that really count? There is no such thing as "gender based" behavior, because not everyone owns up to that generalization.

I found yet another article that explains my point:

http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art36299.asp
Click to expand...

I think because the reality is that if a boy plays with femine dolls (not action figures) he is going to likely grow up being homosexual. Also there are a vast higher percentage of lesbians in the WNBA than in society in general.

We have to be honest now.
 
ZorCrow said:
I think because the reality is that if a boy plays with femine dolls (not action figures) he is going to likely grow up being homosexual. Also there are a vast higher percentage of lesbians in the WNBA than in society in general.

We have to be honest now.
Click to expand...

OK where are those numbers? I'm sure there have been jokes saying as much but I've never seen any hard line proof. Just like there are more gay men who ice skate, heard it but I haven't seen the numbers.
 
The problem with asking what is the goal of Feminism is that it is such a wide umbrella term it would be akin to asking "What is the goal of black society?" -- It's a loaded question that can not be answered fully. What should be the goal, however, is open to interpretation, opinion and debate.

In my humble opinion, the goal of Feminism in the Western side of the world is to break down the gender roles for both men and women to the point where only those that are natural and biological (that is, women bear children -- this isn't going to change any time soon) should count. I include male into this because I believe that for feminism to be successful it will have to destroy all stereotypes pretaining to both sexes. After all, if we just destroy does that are female, by still having male gender roles, we're implying female ones. I.e. "Men should be the bread-winner of the family" implies that women, indeed, should not.

Of course in other cultures and such, while I despise the idea of forcing idealology upon people, there are people's lives at stake and it should work as it did in history when women weren't treated equally and try to change the laws of society first.


P.s. Zorcrow, I never played with dolls when I was a kid. ;) None of my boyfriends ever did either. I think you really need to check your facts.
 
ZorCrow said:
I think because the reality is that if a boy plays with femine dolls (not action figures) he is going to likely grow up being homosexual. Also there are a vast higher percentage of lesbians in the WNBA than in society in general.

We have to be honest now.
Click to expand...

Oh, is THAT so? I think I'm gonna have to ask you to PROVE that, Crow.

There's NOTHING wrong with girls playing 'guy' sports, just as there's nothing wrong with boys playing with dolls. Dolls don't make people homosexual, and NEITHER does basketball. If that were true, I'd be a BUTCH lesbian by now. I mow the lawn, wash my car, and throw a football BETTER than my 16 yo brother. Honestly Crow.... get a grip. :rolleyes:

On a more topical note:

I agree with Sebastian... both Female AND Male roles should be re-evaluated-- and if you examine what feminism is in progress of accomplishing... that IS a goal, whether advertised or not.
 
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