Gender Roles?

[Anchovy]

Here we go, opening a big old can of worms....Ready? Ok.

Historically (at least in America), the world operated in two spheres. The public and the private sphere. Women were relegated to the private sphere (taking care of children, managing the household) while men participated in the public sphere (business, politics, even something as simple as reading a newspaper). The Feminist movement (of both the early and late twentieth century) changed that irreversably and (I would argue) for the better. But it has also raised whole new questions.

Does equality between men and women mean that women can do anything men can? SHould they? Obviously men simply can't do everything a woman can (at least, not until science makes some advances...but even if they do, SHOULD men have babies, nurse them, etc?) Should women have to act like men to get ahead in the workplace (working forty or fifty hour weeks while they still have to go home and cook dinner or drive kids to school) ? SHould companies be required to offer day care or extended maternity leave not only for the women in their employ, but for the men who want to stay how with their wives and new babies? And where does religion come into the gender role question?

While I was gone, I had a personal discovery and in my opinion, women and men are equal partners in the world and in life with inherent differences between them. These differences (in temperament or biologically) should never be a hinderance to either sex, but rather accomadated and celebrated. A women and a man are two parts of a whole, different but equal and society should treat them that way.

Who wants to weigh in and face the wrath of 'Binder?

 

[Karma]

i dont think its ever been an issue for MEN that they not be able to "do everything a woman can do" because in america...for OVER a century its always been ABOUT THE MEN...a MAN and his ability was the standard to which everything was measured. Things like child birth/rearing, knowing how to cook, take care of the home...those tasks were often considered MINOR and a "woman's role".

the struggle for equality has been the burden of women WAY more than it ever has been for men (unless you want to break it down by things like race...and then its the WHITE man who comes out on top in this patriarchal society).

when it comes to EQUALITY and the perception of women ...i think religion more often is a PROBLEM rather than a help.

we saw people like Zorcrow touting a passage of scripture from the bible about "women submitting to their husbands". you have men who arent even REMOTELY Christian using that is the sole reason for subjugating/abusing their wives/girlfriends and expecting these women to wait on men HAND AND FOOT.

Even BEFORE Billie Jean King, women are making history, breaking records as athletes and making their mark in other fields once dominated by men but you have men (again like Zorcrow who is so vocal with it) saying that "men are physically superior to women"...and yet there are PLENTY of women who are more than capable of prooving their physical superiority to men around them.

America is a country that is full of hypocrasy and double standards and i think some groups of society (races, socio/economic classes etc) DO subscribe to more archaic views about a woman's role. its unfortunate and its very irritating but I am reminded of it every day.

 

[DonDaddyD]

I think in 100% equality solely for this ONE reason; I think and honestly believe I can be as much a parent to my children and their Mother could and want such a role. Yes there isn't the physical attchment through carrying a child but that doesn't mean Men love their children anyless or can't develope the same emotional attachments.

In my country Men can have the EXACT amount of maternal leave as a WOMEN! (I will be taking it, when my time comes).

I can cook better than EVERY girl I've ever dated and now most the Women in my family except my Gran and Mother. I can sew and do all the things associated with Women in the home. I also don't think Men are always physically stronger than Men... I have no issues with a women being a women and getting ahead. I don't understand the whole 'time of the month thing' (I know what it is) but having never gone through it I am sympathetic.

I think Women can do anything Men can do (I believed that ever since I learnt they could pee standing up) and should have the same roles as men.

In fact correction I don't think they should have the same roles! What I think is that if you have made a home with someone the roles should be shared out fairly and equally and if one is better than the other with a certain role (regardless of gender) then they should take the responsibilty of it.

 

[sinosleep]

While normally I have no problems with everyone being equal and all I do believe that a good chunk of women out there don't want actual equality, they want equal chance to do men's jobs while still using the fact the they are women to get out of things.

Happens in the army ALL THE DAMNED TIME. At the Warrior Leader Course that I had to go to for a month we had to pull fire guard sometimes. But females could only pull the first and last shift of fire guard which are the best shifts to have since you get uninterrupted sleep either before or after your shift. While all the males got stuck with the bs shifts where you sleep for 2 hours get up and pull fire guard for an hour then go back to sleep for two hours and wind up feeling like you didn't sleep at all.

Same thing on how when it comes to physical fitness they can be on profile (not allowed to do x activity due to x reason) and no one has a problem but males are looked at like you shot the pope if you come to work with a profile.

Or the intensity of training, or how a male gets looked down upon if he gives a female corrective training and they cry (happens more then you would think) but males are expected to take whatever who's in charge of them wants to dish out.

If you want to be an equal and do the same job I do in the army then damn it fall under the same rules instead of all the cop outs they get just becuase they are females.

 

[DonDaddyD]

Question why do women get the best shifts in for fire guard duty?

You know now this may sound wrong but when I encounter women who are/have been in the army or in some sort of public service (police) even outside of the uniform they seem to loose a certain amount of femininity and NO I don't mean like stereotypical giggles and such (because I don't see that as being feminine) or now that 'they comand authority, they can't be women' (woman can command respect and still remain feminine), it's just they actually loose a certain feminine aspect about them in their mannerisms or something, same with female security guards and I'm saying this based on the fact that sometimes I make this assessment on them before I learn what they do for a living.

In all this of this discussion of what gender role, all I want is for my Woman to BE a Woman.

 

[Karma]

the question is...what then do you consider to be "a woman being a woman"? THIS is where the perception of a woman's role comes in...and for many men..its VERY dated and tainted with chauvanist outlooks. I agree that women should be feminine...but do we need a MAN telling us what "femininity" is? that would be like ME telling you how to be a man and i know you wouldnt want to hear THAT lol. I agree that there are some women who ARE rather "gross" and BRASH in their behavior..Ann Coulter is one of them. She may LOOK feminine but her whole presentation is tacatless, obnoxious and completely low class...she's a disgrace to feminism. I also have a problem with the LOOK of FEMALE body builders. It GROSSES ME OUT to my core because i believe in celebrating my body as a woman...and to ME those women do NOT look feminine at all. I dont CRITICIZE them as women for doing what they want to do...i think its amazing that they CAN change their bodies and become as strong (and in many cases STRONGER) than some of their male counter parts. BUT it just looks to me like they sacrifice the allure and femininity that their bodies once had...not to mention their voices, even their facial features.


and sinosleep, should a woman be DENIED the opportunity to do what you're doing JUST because she's a woman? the reason why MEN are expected to "take everything they get dished" is BECAUSE FOR DECADES Men have been TOUTED as being "tough, strong, macho, superior" and "they shouldnt cry, shouldnt show emotion" etc. WOMEN were largely tought to use emotions and wiles to MANIPULATE...its the roles that have been perpetuated for AGES in our society. FEMINISM shook ALL that up in a way that its pioneers (susan b.anthony, the suffragist movement etc) could never imagine.

A true feminist knows that with equality there comes the expection that we will do things with the same level of expectation that a man would have. back when women were fighting for the right to vote, there was a woman in particular who was brought before a judge in a trial (as women then were arrested for their demonstrations etc) and the judge wanted to "have pity and mercy" on her because she was a woman..but she INSISTED she go to jail if that was what was required because she wanted to be SEEN and TREATED as an EQUAL.

Now OBVIOUSLY some women may have physical limitations when trying to do certain things (hell some MEN cant even do the same things other men do lol) BUT dont tell her she cant do it...let her at least be able to TRY and give her all!

and when it comes to FAMILY life...the sun ISNT going to crash on the earth if a WOMAN is the "bread winner" of the house while the MAN stays home and cares for the children. That kind of scenario is happening more and more in america and its working JUST FINE.

 

[DonDaddyD]

the question is...what then do you consider to be "a woman being a woman"? THIS is where the perception of a woman's role comes in...and for many men..its VERY dated and tainted with chauvanist outlooks. I agree that women should be feminine...but do we need a MAN telling us what "femininity" is? that would be like ME telling you how to be a man and i know you wouldnt want to hear THAT lol.

NO when a Man falters sometimes what is needed is for said Man to have a Woman look him in the eye and check him, so that he realises that he needs to fix up. The best contrast for masculinity is femininity and visa versa.

That said a Woman being a woman is hard to define but has nothing to with her house hold role or the perceived role in society.

You know I don't know what I'm talking about. Well I do but it's something so unique to me, I guess I'm just saying everything I find attractive in Women, quirks and all. But if your not me I guess you'll think I'm talking shit. So the point is moot! LOl!

 

[Karma]

NO when a Man falters sometimes what is needed is for said Man to have a Woman look him in the eye and check him, so that he realises that he needs to fix up. The best contrast for masculinity is femininity and visa versa.

That said a Woman being a woman is hard to define but has nothing to with her house hold role or the perceived role in society.

You know I don't know what I'm talking about. Well I do but it's something so unique to me, I guess I'm just saying everything I find attractive in Women, quirks and all. But if your not me I guess you'll think I'm talking shit. So the point is moot! LOl!

what youve just said is alot more FEELING and shows RESPECT and appreciation for a woman and all she can be. its a hell of alot better than someone quoting the bible and saying that "a man is the head of the house, he's physically superior to a woman, she's supposed to submit to him because the bible says..." etc etc.

THATS what i'm stuck on..is the use of religion to endorse the roles women are forced into...this is SO prevelant in the middle east..its ROOTED in their culture and i'm STILL not entirely sure that ISLAM doesnt endorse this kind of treatment of women (Osiris would have to clear that up) but from what i've HEARD and seen...it seems to me that alot of men just dont really have a true idea of the value of women..outside of how they can benefit THEM and they dont see them outside of the "role" that THEY decreed we should occupy.

 

[Persephone]

Everyone's made valid points...but this is an endless debate that's been going on for decades. Whether woman should stay at home and "tend to the children". Whether woman should be paid equally to that of a man. Whether woman and men should be treated equally in the military. It's a never ending debate that gets no where in my opinion. YES I believe woman should be treated equally; should get paid the same as a man if given the same position a man has. Should be given the opportunity to pursue a career in the armed forces. To do whatever she damn well pleases because a woman is a living, breathing human being JUST like a man. It's ridiculous to even have to argue or debate about something like this--especially for almost 5 decades--just because woman are built differently and don't have penises.

 

[Foxfire]

There have been many debates and arguments involving gender roles. Some say there are and some disagree. I personally say there ARE gender roles and its really annoying.

As history would have it and as Farrah so passionately argued the over usage of the bible, which pretty much degrades women to an extent (in MY women). Years ago it was thought a man would be the bread winner and the wife would accommodate for him. But I think both genders are getting tiresome of these limits and yearn to change. We're all humans we all evolve. And that's exactly what our nation is doing thanks to the feminists and strong - independent women who took a stand. I highly applaud that stance but that's not too important.

Being equal to me means sharing the same attributes such as money, career, etc. So many women are rejected on jobs due to their gender. And I'm sure even some men are subjected to this as well. I find that working in a law firm I get to see personally that the men are cut throat, arrogant, and women are BELOW them. And why are we the weaker link when clearly WE work our asses off for them. I think its easy for men to stipulate they are stronger, more intelligent because frankly their ego's are way out of proportion.

Women are highly competitive these days and continue to do so. Already women are beginning to steal high earning positions from their male counterparts. Girls in high school are proving to be intellectually far superior (which happened at my school. ). After the feminist movement, women realize we're just as strong as men. And frankly...I don't NEED a man to survive I can do it on my own. Whoever said women need men are obviously deluded.

I do think if men were capable of being pregnant with children, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Some men are very maternal to babies and young children that I have no problem with it. I think its really up to that person what they want. If women want to be the bred winner, more power to them. If men want to one day have babies (provided we have the technology to do so) go for it.

What I can't see is BOTH genders having maternity leave. It has to be one or the other, usually whoever is carrying the baby (which in this day and age is the woman). If the man stays home, who brings in the money? It wouldn't be logical to do this, and I believe after I think the seventh month, the woman has to stop working unless she desires to continue.

I agree with Farrah though, if we look outside of the country like India women are heavily clothed and for what?! Their husbands have like nine wives, which is ridiculous! The men are all nasty anyway LOL! I think its easy for MOST men to automatically place gender roles on women, which is irritating.

As for the military so the woman has one weakness. Whose to say that police officer, marine, etc., does not have a weakness of let's say firearms? It would balance out one way or the other. Truthfully, I think men are jealous women are becoming more active in the military. Now its competition for them especially if women overpower the men. I think this country has made the military out to be "macho, strong" and all that other bullshit. Granted, not everyone can make the call due to eye sight, physical fitness, intellectual brainpower, etc.

 

[ZorCrow]

Ahh Yes .. . .my FAVORITE SUBJECT

Gender Benders . .

1. Men are women are not equal physically.
Men are physically stronger than women, pointing out some oddity like Cynthia Rothrock or Billie Jean King (who only beat at best an average tennis player she never beat an elite male) doesn't change the truth and the norm.

I am stronger than every woman on this website period. . .

2. Let's not let BINDER'S twisting of the scripture get it wrong.

Wives should submit to the leadership of their husbands, and husbands should love, respect and cherish their wives. What's wrong with that?
This is marriage and family structure here not the work place.

3. The feminism that has struck our nation has done more damage than good. Women have success in the board room, but at what costs? We have generation of kids who have a lot of issues because mom wasn't home. I am all for women having careers but not at the expense of their motherly roles in our society.

The radical feminists, social perverts and homosexual activists want to "define" these roles and it will be to our demise not to our success.

Now as a MINORITY I feel that the lack of having positive black male role models has hurt our people. The fact that our women are working and taking on roles they shouldn't have hurt OUR preciouis black people. The black males role in the black community has shifted from one of leadership and support to one of degredation and hedonism. These things have to change, we need fathers and mothers in our community to turn it around.

We have too many "baby daddies and baby mommas" (truly ignorant terms) and no mothes and fathers. Everyone no matter what religion knows that until our men change their paths and become responsible men as MANY RELIGIONS teach, we won't succeed.

You wan to see what a fatherless society looks like, look at Wayne County Jail and many urban jails and prisons and ask the guys their about the role of the fathers in their lives you will find A VAST MAJORITY

1. don't know their fathers

2. fathers abused them

3. fathers were bad role models . .

The role of the father and the leader in our society can't be underestimated.

We need less T.I. and Ludacris' in our community and more of
JAMES EVANS SR.

 

[sinosleep]

As for the military so the woman has one weakness. Whose to say that police officer, marine, etc., does not have a weakness of let's say firearms? It would balance out one way or the other. Truthfully, I think men are jealous women are becoming more active in the military. Now its competition for them especially if women overpower the men. I think this country has made the military out to be "macho, strong" and all that other bullshit. Granted, not everyone can make the call due to eye sight, physical fitness, intellectual brainpower, etc.

Um I'm IN the military, active duty, and have been for the last four years. To not even bother mentioning ANY of the VALID topics that I brought up and chalk it up to jealously is friggen rediculous.

I'm not debating whether they should be allowed to join or not, what I brought up is that if you want equality and then be equal in EVERY way. Don't tell me you want equal pay for doing the same job, and then NOT have the same requirements that I do. I mean we have ground rods (for electrically grounding our communications equiptment) that have to be pounded 3 feet into the ground. Take a wild guess at who's pounding those ground rods in? We have 7+ 150+ pound boxes that have to be dismounted from the truck and set up so we can do our jobs. Guess who gets stuck carrying those? Guess who gets all the bs guard shifts?

MEN on EVERY LAST ONE OF THOSE. But you're going to talk to me about equality? That's not equality, that's getting paid to do my job even though you're only doing half of it. Don't sit here and tell me I can't exclude you becuase of your gender, then turn around and USE that same gender to exclude yourself from the physical aspects of the job.

[edit] Sorry if I came off like a prick, but that last bit of your post flipped a switch in my head. So if I come off as a bastard sorry about that.

 

[Nerull]

I am all for women having careers but not at the expense of their motherly roles in our society.

So you're saying that women can have a career but it shouldn't be as important as there "motherly" duties.

Incidentally WTF is a motherly duty ? Apart from physical things like breast feeding WHAT can a woman do for a child that a man cannot ? I like to think that my father was caring and sensitive and respected me as me not as a chance for him to live his younger days again through me.

The radical feminists, social perverts and homosexual activists want to "define" these roles and it will be to our demise not to our success

If we are taking the "traditional" roles of men and women in a parent-child relationship and removing them what's to stop a man looking after the children and the woman going to work ? (of course the issue of equal responsibility raises it's head again) I personally think what stops this is the lack of equal pay for men and women in business/industry/hospitality etc. From this it's easy to see that a "role-reversed" family unit would suffer through no fault of their own.

 

[Osiris]

Sometimes I dread "chiming" in, because I know my words may be "spinned" to ensure my quick death at the hands of Xena aka Farrah!

Seriously though....

Im going to try and look at this from a myriad of perspectives both religious and secular.

According to my faith(Islam), men and women are equal. They have the same origin and neither is superior to the other. The only thing remotely different is our Natures and our Duties. While Nature can be clearly defined ie women tend to be more nurturing, have menstral cycles, etc. Duties can have a lot of grey area. In Islam, the traditional role of the man is to be the maintainer of the woman. Islam doesnt really define the womans role specifically other than to say that she should be modest. It really doesnt matter who wins the "bread" in Islam as long as their are certain duties being fulfilled ie the man leads in prayer or salah. The Quran constantly reminds us to bare reverance to the wombs that bore us, reminds us of the equality and status of women as teachers, leaders, and guides. The Quran tells us that we are only potentially 50% and can never be 100% without the woman. The Prophet of Islam(saw), stated that "heaven lies at the foot of the mother" but to better clarify my "essay" here is an excerpt from a Muslim scholar circa 1971:

III. WOMAN IN ISLAM​

In the midst of the darkness that engulfed the world, the divine revelation echoed in the wide desert of Arabia with a fresh, noble, and universal message to humanity: "O Mankind, keep your duty to your Lord who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate (of same kind) and from them twain has spread a multitude of men and women" (Qur'an 4: 1).
A scholar who pondered about this verse states: "It is believed that there is no text, old or new, that deals with the humanity of the woman from all aspects with such amazing brevity, eloquence, depth, and originality as this divine decree."
Stressing this noble and natural conception, them Qur'an states:

He (God) it is who did create you from a single soul and therefrom did create his mate, that he might dwell with her (in love)...(Qur'an 7:189)
The Creator of heavens and earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves ...Qur'an 42:1 1

And Allah has given you mates of your own nature, and has given you from your mates, children and grandchildren, and has made provision of good things for you. Is it then in vanity that they believe and in the grace of God that they disbelieve? Qur'an 16:72​

The rest of this paper outlines the position of Islam regarding the status of woman in society from its various aspects - spiritually, socially, economically and politically.

1. The Spiritual Aspect
The Qur'an provides clear-cut evidence that woman iscompletely equated with man in the sight of God interms of her rights and responsibilities. The Qur'an states:

"Every soul will be (held) in pledge for its deeds" (Qur'an 74:38). It also states:
...So their Lord accepted their prayers, (saying): I will not suffer to be lost the work of any of you whether male or female. You proceed one from another ...(Qur'an 3: 195).

Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has faith, verily to him will We give a new life that is good and pure, and We will bestow on such their reward according to the their actions. (Qur'an 16:97, see also 4:124).​

Woman according to the Qur'an is not blamed for Adam's first mistake. Both were jointly wrong in their disobedience to God, both repented, and both were forgiven. (Qur'an 2:36, 7:20 - 24). In one verse in fact (20:121), Adam specifically, was blamed.
In terms of religious obligations, such as the Daily Prayers, Fasting, Poor-due, and Pilgrimage, woman is no different from man. In some cases indeed, woman has certain advantages over man. For example, the woman is exempted from the daily prayers and from fasting during her menstrual periods and forty days after childbirth. She is also exempted from fasting during her pregnancy and when she is nursing her baby if there is any threat to her health or her baby's. If the missed fasting is obligatory (during the month of Ramadan), she can make up for the missed days whenever she can. She does not have to make up for the prayers missed for any of the above reasons. Although women can and did go into the mosque during the days of the prophet and thereafter attendance et the Friday congregational prayers is optional for them while it is mandatory for men (on Friday).
This is clearly a tender touch of the Islamic teachings for they are considerate of the fact that a woman may be nursing her baby or caring for him, and thus may be unable to go out to the mosque at the time of the prayers. They also take into account the physiological and psychological changes associated with her natural female functions.

2. The Social Aspect
a) As a child and an adolescent
Despite the social acceptance of female infanticide among some Arabian tribes, the Qur'an forbade this custom, and considered it a crime like any other murder.

"And when the female (infant) buried alive - is questioned, for what crime she was killed." (Qur'an 81:8-9).​

Criticizing the attitudes of such parents who reject their female children, the Qur'an states:

When news is brought to one of them, of (the Birth of) a female (child), his face darkens and he is filled with inward grief! With shame does he hide himself from his people because of the bad news he has had! Shall he retain her on (sufferance) and contempt, or bury her in the dust? Ah! What an evil (choice) they decide on? (Qur'an 16: 58-59).​

Far from saving the girl's life so that she may later suffer injustice and inequality, Islam requires kind and just treatment for her. Among the sayings of Prophet Muhammad (P.) in this regard are the following:

Whosoever has a daughter and he does not bury her alive, does not insult her, and does not favor his son over her, God will enter him into Paradise. (Ibn Hanbal, No. 1957).

Whosoever supports two daughters till they mature, he and I will come in the day of judgment as this (and he pointed with his two fingers held together).​

A similar Hadeeth deals in like manner with one who supports two sisters. (Ibn-Hanbal, No. 2104).
The right of females to seek knowledge is not different from that of males. Prophet Muhammad (P.) said:

"Seeking knowledge is mandatory for every Muslim". (AlBayhaqi). Muslim as used here including both males and females.​

b) As a wife:
The Qur'an clearly indicates that marriage is sharing between the two halves of the society, and that its objectives, beside perpetuating human life, are emotional well-being and spiritual harmony. Its bases are love and mercy.
Among the most impressive verses in the Qur'an about marriage is the following.

"And among His signs is this: That He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest, peace of mind in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Lo, herein indeed are signs for people who reflect." (Qur'an 30:2 1).​

According to Islamic Law, women cannot be forced to marry anyone without their consent.
Ibn Abbas reported that a girl came to the Messenger of God, Muhammad (P.), and she reported that her father had forced her to marry without her consent. The Messenger of God gave her the choice . . . (between accepting the marriage or invalidating it). (Ibn Hanbal No. 2469). In another version, the girl said: "Actually I accept this marriage but I wanted to let women know that parents have no right (to force a husband on them)" (Ibn Maja, No. 1873).
Besides all other provisions for her protection at the time of marriage, it was specifically decreed that woman has the full right to her Mahr, a marriage gift, which is presented to her by her husband and is included in the nuptial contract, and that such ownership does not transfer to her father or husband. The concept of Mahr in Islam is neither an actual or symbolic price for the woman, as was the case in certain cultures, but rather it is a gift symbolizing love and affection.
The rules for married life in Islam are clear and in harmony with upright human nature. In consideration of the physiological and psychological make-up of man and woman, both have equal rights and claims on one another, except for one responsibility, that of leadership. This is a matter which is natural in any collective life and which is consistent with the nature of man.
The Qur'an thus states:

"And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them, and men are a degree above them." (Qur'an 2:228).​

Such degree is Quiwama (maintenance and protection). This refers to that natural difference between the sexes which entitles the weaker sex to protection. It implies no superiority or advantage before the law. Yet, man's role of leadership in relation to his family does not mean the husband's dictatorship over his wife. Islam emphasizes the importance of taking counsel and mutual agreement in family decisions. The Qur'an gives us an example:

"...If they (husband wife) desire to wean the child by mutual consent and (after) consultation, there is no blame on them..." (Qur'an 2: 233).​

Over and above her basic rights as a wife comes the right which is emphasized by the Qur'an and is strongly recommended by the Prophet (P); kind treatment and companionship.
The Qur'an states:

"...But consort with them in kindness, for if you hate them it may happen that you hate a thing wherein God has placed much good." (Qur'an 4: l9).

Prophet Muhammad. (P) said:
The best of you is the best to his family and I am the best among you to my family.
The most perfect believers are the best in conduct and best of you are those who are best to their wives. (Ibn-Hanbal, No. 7396)

Behold, many women came to Muhammad's wives complaining against their husbands (because they beat them) - - those (husbands) are not the best of you.​

As the woman's right to decide about her marriage is recognized, so also her right to seek an end for an unsuccessful marriage is recognized. To provide for the stability of the family, however, and in order to protect it from hasty decisions under temporary emotional stress, certain steps and waiting periods should be observed by men and women seeking divorce. Considering the relatively more emotional nature of women, a good reason for asking for divorce should be brought before the judge. Like the man, however, the woman can divorce her husband with out resorting to the court, if the nuptial contract allows that.
More specifically, some aspects of Islamic Law concerning marriage and divorce are interesting and are worthy of separate treatment.
When the continuation of the marriage relationship is impossible for any reason, men are still taught to seek a gracious end for it.
The Qur'an states about such cases:

When you divorce women, and they reach their prescribed term, then retain them in kindness and retain them not for injury so that you transgress (the limits). (Qur'an 2:231). (See also Qur'an 2:229 and 33:49).​

c) As a mother:
Islam considered kindness to parents next to the worship of God.

"And we have enjoined upon man (to be good) to his parents: His mother bears him in weakness upon weakness..." (Qur'an 31:14) (See also Qur'an 46:15, 29:8).​

Moreover, the Qur'an has a special recommendation for the good treatment of mothers:

"Your Lord has decreed that you worship none save Him, and that you be kind to your parents. . ." (Qur'an 17:23).​

A man came to Prophet Muhammad (P) asking:

O Messenger of God, who among the people is the most worthy of my good company? The Prophet (P) said, Your mother. The man said then who else: The Prophet (P) said, Your mother. The man asked, Then who else? Only then did the Prophet (P) say, Your father. (Al-Bukhari and Muslim).​

A famous saying of The Prophet is "Paradise is at the feet of mothers." (In Al'Nisa'I, Ibn Majah, Ahmad).
"It is the generous (in character) who is good to women, and it is the wicked who insults them."

3. The Economic Aspect
Islam decreed a right of which woman was deprived both before Islam and after it (even as late as this century), the right of independent ownership. According to Islamic Law, woman's right to her money, real estate, or other properties is fully acknowledged. This right undergoes no change whether she is single or married. She retains her full rights to buy, sell, mortgage or lease any or all her properties. It is nowhere suggested in the Law that a woman is a minor simply because she is a female. It is also noteworthy that such right applies to her properties before marriage as well as to whatever she acquires thereafter.
With regard to the woman's right to seek employment it should be stated first that Islam regards her role in society as a mother and a wife as the most sacred and essential one. Neither maids nor baby-sitters can possibly take the mother's place as the educator of an upright, complex free, and carefully-reared children. Such a noble and vital role, which largely shapes the future of nations, cannot be regarded as "idleness".
However, there is no decree in Islam which forbids woman from seeking employment whenever there is a necessity for it, especially in positions which fit her nature and in which society needs her most. Examples of these professions are nursing, teaching (especially for children), and medicine. Moreover, there is no restriction on benefiting from woman's exceptional talent in any field. Even for the position of a judge, where there may be a tendency to doubt the woman's fitness for the post due to her more emotional nature, we find early Muslim scholars such as Abu-Hanifa and Al-Tabary holding there is nothing wrong with it. In addition, Islam restored to woman the right of inheritance, after she herself was an object of inheritance in some cultures. Her share is completely hers and no one can make any claim on it, including her father and her husband.

"Unto men (of the family) belongs a share of that which Parents and near kindred leave, and unto women a share of that which parents and near kindred leave, whether it be a little or much - a determinate share." ((Qur'an 4:7).​

Her share in most cases is one-half the man's share, with no implication that she is worth half a man! It would seem grossly inconsistent after the overwhelming evidence of woman's equitable treatment in Islam, which was discussed in the preceding pages, to make such an inference. This variation in inheritance rights is only consistent with the variations in financial responsibilities of man and woman according to the Islamic Law. Man in Islam is fully responsible for the maintenance of his wife, his children, and in some cases of his needy relatives, especially the females. This responsibility is neither waived nor reduced because of his wife's wealth or because of her access to any personal income gained from work, rent, profit, or any other legal means.
Woman, on the other hand, is far more secure financially and is far less burdened with any claims on her possessions. Her possessions before marriage do not transfer to her husband and she even keeps her maiden name. She has no obligation to spend on her family out of such properties or out of her income after marriage. She is entitled to the "Mahr" which she takes from her husband at the time of marriage. If she is divorced, she may get an alimony from her ex-husband.
An examination of the inheritance law within the overall framework of the Islamic Law reveals not only justice but also an abundance of compassion for woman.

4. The Political Aspect

Any fair investigation of the teachings of Islam o~ into the history of the Islamic civilization will surely find a clear evidence of woman's equality with man in what we call today "political rights".
This includes the right of election as well as the nomination to political offices. It also includes woman's right to participate in public affairs. Both in the Qur'an and in Islamic history we find examples of women who participated in serious discussions and argued even with the Prophet (P) himself, (see Qur'an 58: 14 and 60: 10-12).
During the Caliphate of Omar Ibn al-Khattab, a woman argued with him in the mosque, proved her point, and caused him to declare in the presence of people: "A woman is right and Omar is wrong."
Although not mentioned in the Qur'an, one Hadeeth of the Prophet is interpreted to make woman ineligible for the position of head of state. The Hadeeth referred to is roughly translated: "A people will not prosper if they let a woman be their leader." This limitation, however, has nothing to do with the dignity of woman or with her rights. It is rather, related to the natural differences in the biological and psychological make-up of men and women.
According to Islam, the head of the state is no mere figurehead. He leads people in the prayers, especially on Fridays and festivities; he is continuously engaged in the process of decision-making pertaining to the security and well-being of his people. This demanding position, or any similar one, such as the Commander of the Army, is generally inconsistent with the physiological and psychological make-up of woman in general. It is a medical fact that during their monthly periods and during their pregnancies, women undergo various physiological and psychological changes. Such changes may occur during an emergency situation, thus affecting her decision, without considering the excessive strain which is produced. Moreover, some decisions require a maximum of rationality and a minimum of emotionality - a requirement which does not coincide with the instinctive nature of women.

Even in modern times, and in the most developed countries, it is rare to find a woman in the position of a head of state acting as more than a figurehead, a woman commander of the armed services, or even a proportionate number of women representatives in parliaments, or similar bodies. One can not possibly ascribe this to backwardness of various nations or to any constitutional limitation on woman's right to be in such a position as a head of state or as a member of the parliament. It is more logical to explain the present situation in terms of the natural and indisputable differences between man and woman, a difference which does not imply any "supremacy" of one over the other. The difference implies rather the "complementary" roles of both the sexes in life.

Im sorry for that, but sometimes a little reading goes a long way.

Now as far as the secular aspect and being a former USMC Sgt who commanded women at times I will say, that obviously the "system" is unfair when it comes to the workplace, but as Binder hinted, its primarily because the man driven society made it that way, so naturally things like "duty" , physical fitness tests, and overall training will be skewed to compensate for females. Its the nature of the game. I had to learn that as a Private, I mean while some women can in fact do 20 dead hang pulls ups(I know some) its not the norm so women are not required to do such, hell most Male Marines can't do 20! My point is, regardless of uniform differences, fitness, or duty differences, Women are just as qualified as men and I know some female Marines that are 120lbs soaking wet that have very long hair and look like super models, that will put the fear of God in any man or women, and statistically, for some odd reason in Marine Recruit Training(boot camp) women tend to be more accurate shooters then the men, yet don't go to combat(go figure).​

 

[Karma]

Zorcrow, do you honestly believe you're stronger than ANY woman on this board? :haha: honey, i've SEEN what you look like and believe me.....if you really think you are stronger, faster, more physically able than EVERY woman on this board then you need to get a clue. your arrogance, your male bravado is an EMBARRASSMENT to men EVERYWHERE because you say all the shit that women KNOW men think...but try not to say now because of the fact that feminism has changed the playing field.

and as for you sinosleep: i believe foxfire IS onto something about JEALOUSY and possibly feeling the threat of competition when it comes to women in the Military.

Now as far as the secular aspect and being a former USMC Sgt who commanded women at times I will say, that obviously the "system" is unfair when it comes to the workplace, but as Binder hinted, its primarily because the man driven society made it that way, so naturally things like "duty" , physical fitness tests, and overall training will be skewed to compensate for females.

BINGO!

Its the nature of the game. I had to learn that as a Private, I mean while some women can in fact do 20 dead hang pulls ups(I know some) its not the norm so women are not required to do such, hell most Male Marines can't do 20! My point is, regardless of uniform differences, fitness, or duty differences, Women are just as qualified as men and I know some female Marines that are 120lbs soaking wet that have very long hair and look like super models, that will put the fear of God in any man or women, and statistically, for some odd reason in Marine Recruit Training(boot camp) women tend to be more accurate shooters then the men, yet don't go to combat(go figure).

Zorcrow and sinosleep...READ THAT if you dont read ANYTHING ELSE. because BOTH of you need to understand that WOMEN are JUST as capable as MEN and its not OUR fault that men created a system that doesnt expect as much from an able bodied woman as a man. MEN are the ones who declared through deed, action and even legislation for YEARS that women are some how LESS than capable. FEMINISM has changed that.


as for the information on Islam's interpetation of woman's "roles"...i will admit that its not as barbaric as i once believed it to be. that was some good reading actually. but if Islamic law is so clear on its high esteem of women (i honestly did NOT expect to read what i read from that) WHY is it that women are treated SO BADLY in the middle east and surrounding areas?

there are some countries that force FEMALE CIRCUMCISION , not to mention making their women dress from head to toe in restrictive clothing that completely obscures them while the MEN seem to enjoy a rather WESTERNIZED look, can look and SLEEP with whomever they choose but let a WOMAN even have a HINT of sexuality and she's stoned, ridiculed, given a scarlett letter and everything else.

 

[Osiris]

as for the information on Islam's interpetation of woman's "roles"...i will admit that its not as barbaric as i once believed it to be. that was some good reading actually. but if Islamic law is so clear on its high esteem of women (i honestly did NOT expect to read what i read from that) WHY is it that women are treated SO BADLY in the middle east and surrounding areas?

there are some countries that force FEMALE CIRCUMCISION , not to mention making their women dress from head to toe in restrictive clothing that completely obscures them while the MEN seem to enjoy a rather WESTERNIZED look, can look and SLEEP with whomever they choose but let a WOMAN even have a HINT of sexuality and she's stoned, ridiculed, given a scarlett letter and everything else.

Thats the Islamic "calamity" if you will. We have centuries of history where Muslim women were not treated as such. While this is definitely not the norm in Islam as the Middle East makes up one of the smallest populations of Muslims(Asia being the largest group), people tend to focus on the Middle East(hell Islam did originate in Saudi Arabia). The truth is, while Islam teaches the exact opposite of what some Middle Easterners do, they find a way to justify it, because the truth of it is that Islam especially in the East is plagued by CULTURAL ideas coming in first and Islam in second. However all is not lost:

Left to right, Karima Rjili, Rquiya El Youssi, Leila El Fares, Khadija Al Aktamiand and Saadia Ait Bou, five graduates who will become Islamic guides known as the 'Mourchidate' show their certificates in Rabat, Morocco Wednesday, May 3, 2006. In an unprecedented move, 50 women graduated Wednesday as religious preachers, part of a concerted effort by authorities to promote a moderate Islam in a country grappling with Muslim extremism. (AP Photo/Jalil Bounhar)





50 Women Named Muslim Preachers in Morocco

By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI, Associated Press Writer Thu May 4, 8:53 AM ET

ABAT, Morocco - Fifty women have graduated as Muslim preachers, part of a concerted effort by authorities in Morocco to promote moderate Islam in a country grappling with extremism.

Another 150 men graduated Wednesday as imams, or prayer leaders. The 50 female religious guides, or morchidat, won't lead prayers in mosques, which is reserved for men, but will be sent around the country to teach women — and, occasionally, men — about Islam.

While Moroccan officials said the appointment of female state preachers was a rare experiment in the Muslim world, others said it was unprecedented in Morocco and the majority of other Arab countries.
"Your duty ... is to prevent intrusion by foreign agents trying to violate our values and traditions," Ahmed Taoufiq, minister of Islamic Affairs, told the graduates Wednesday.

"You must be committed to the faith and politics of the state which the people have chosen. This choice includes the policies of the Amir al Moumenin (Commander of the Faithful) who runs deep in our veins," said Taoufiq, referring to the religious title of King Mohammed VI.
The training of the preachers is part of a campaign launched by the young king, a descendant of the Muslim Prophet Muhammad, to strengthen state-controlled mosques while undermining radical clerics who preach Islamic extremism. He has vowed that no foreign religious doctrine would be tolerated in the North African kingdom, which is a close ally of the United States and a partner in its war against terrorism.

Moroccan officials say the May 16, 2003, suicide bombings in the commercial capital of Casablanca were inspired by radical Muslim clerics who preached violence to poor and disillusioned youths in slums of the big cities.

More than 2,000 people were arrested as a result of the bombings, including Mohammed Fazzazi, who is serving a 30-year-sentence for preaching violence. Two other well-known hard-line Islamic clerics, Abu Hafs and Hassan Kettani, were arrested before the bombings. They were convicted and sentenced to 30 and 20 years in prison respectively for being the ideologists of the Salafia Jihadia militants.

In an interview with a Moroccan weekly six months before the Casablanca blasts, Abu Hafs bragged that his mosque had been packed every Friday since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States and that his taped sermons were widely sold. He said the Sept. 11 hijackers were heroes.
Since the Casablanca blasts, Moroccan authorities have been monitoring the country's mosques closely to ensure that they do not recruit insurgents. At least four were shut down following the Sept. 11 attacks. Authorities also try to control — although with little success — the sale of inflammatory books and videotapes.

Friday prayer sermons now must be approved by authorities. Underground mosques are believed to continue to exist, although to a much lesser degree than before the blasts.

The king's initiatives include the creation a year ago of the Mohammed VI Quran radio station that broadcasts religious programs, and the Assadisa Islamic satellite TV station.

The Council of Religious Scholars, established by the king two years ago, has been issuing religious edicts on the most pressing questions of the 21st century — and, surprisingly, they've been well-received by both young people and hardened Islamists.

Taoufiq said 2,000 of Morocco's more than 24,000 mosques will be equipped with TV sets in the comings weeks. Already, the ministry's Web site enables the faithful to chat with religious scholars at 1,000 key mosques in the country.

The pioneer group of morchidat, who finished a yearlong course in Islamic law, philosophy and the history of religions in early April, was trained to give basic religious instructions in mosques and provide support in prisons, hospitals and schools. Their salary is about $500 a month.

Applicants for the course must have a bachelor's degree and be under 45. Male applicants must know the Quran by heart, while female applicants should know at least half of it.

Although it is a first for Morocco — which like many other Muslim countries has shunned the rise of women to senior religious positions — Egypt and Iran have seen an increase in female scholars of Islam.

Even though there are no restrictions in Islam for women to become religious scholars, the male-dominated Muslim societies have generally disputed that women should have a senior position. Any woman wishing to be an imam can lead prayers only for a group of women, not for men.
Fatima Titi, 24, said she was very excited to become a religious guide. "I am looking forward to portraying a good image of Islam, one that's forgiving and promotes peace," she said.

 

[ZorCrow]

Muslim Nations do treat women as equals

Signed,
Iran,
Saudi Arabia,
and Afghanastan.

Get real, many Islamic countries burn, kill and treat women like crap.
You speak for yourself Osiris but not for the whole Muslim world,
Burkas anyone?

Now back to the BINDER and this mess, forget it
WNBA vs. NBA who's a better league? Which team coudl be the other in basketball? forget it .. the MEN'S LEAGUE would win out.

What's wrong with the truth? Men and women are DIFFERENT and our society and our culture is suffering from men NOT BEING IN THE MAN ROLE THE FATHER ROLE, THE PROVIDER ROLE, THE LEADERSHIP ROLE IN RELATIONSHIPS.

I am all for equal pay but let's make the standards equal as well,
and I said I was STRONGER, I can't run and do cardio worth jack, but I can bench press more than any of you women on this website.
The law enforcement standards are differnet for women, theri run times are slower, and their strength scale is EXTREMELY LOWER.

Male football vs. Female football, the average woman would be in pieces,
get real these things are true. Men are stronger than women, why is that such a shock? SAY IT WOMEN SAY IT, MEN ARE STRONGER THAN US.

It's true, I don't know a single woman stronger than Flex Wheeler.

I am not a sexist, I know WOMEN CAN LEAD. Heck do you know,
A WOMAN RUNS MY JOB,SHE'S THE BIG BOSS. In fact my Local Big boss answers to a highly capable woman. I have worked for women before,
and will again if I have to. I am not a pig because I tell the truth.

WOMEN AND MEN ARE DIFFERENET

To Ignore these differences is to ignore reality. Women are from Venus,
Men are from Mars. . . .

 

[Black Widow]

Lord, do you REALLY want my opinion on this?

I would like to make a public service announcement: Please make sure you are all SITTING down.... b/c I'd hate for any of you to fall and hurt yourselves.

Men [more often than not] are STRONGER than women. :shock:

Happy, Darling? I'm a WOMAN.... and I said it.

HOWEVER... I don't mean to hurt your feelings.... but I could SERIOUSLY injure you if I wanted... and with LITTLE effort, no less.

You want the TRUTH?? Women may not be as strong as men... but we have learned to COMPENSATE for that. I can't match you for BRUTE STRENGTH.... but I've been trained to TEAR YOUR ASS UP using physics and tact. You could probably bench press ME... but that wont SAVE YOU.... because I can STILL break you in several pieces-- because like every OTHER human being, you have weaknessess that I'll have no qualms about exploiting. Think I'm just bluffing? I saw a woman roughly MY size [5 foot 2 and 120 lbs] FLIP a man with a foot and 100 lbs on her OVER her shoulder and onto the floor, BREAKING his wrist in the process. Now, whenever its cold outside, he'll be painfully reminded of what a BAD IDEA it was to grab her ass. Women are far more dangerous than men... mostly because we are constantly underestimated, and because we think with our BRAINS and not our hormones. So before you go public with your ego-oriented notions, BEWARE... I could show you JUST how wrong you are. You can be as STRONG as you like. Physically SUPERIOR? You'd better re-evaluate THAT assessment dear.

'Not a sexist'? You sure contradict yourself. just LISTEN to yourself.

AND ANOTHER THING: You can't blame lack of father figures on the WOMAN. You want father figures? be one YOURSELF. Raise your sons to RESPECT women. Raise your sons to VALUE family. But don't you dare come bitchin to me about lack of father figures.

As for YOU, Sinosleep... you have pretty much been addressed... but in case you dont believe them.... I'll reiterate.... the Military is largely a MAN's world... and MEN make the rules there, INCLUDING what women are and aren't allowed to do... like lifting, combat roles, and whatever else. The truth is, a woman has to work TWICE as hard to get the same respect a man has in the military. So you can QUIT YOUR BITCHIN too. :nod:


Now, with that addressed, I'd like to offer you all some personal insight. My mother is your good ol'e stay at home mom. She does laundry, cooks dinner, raises the kids. She also homeschools my younger sisters. What she does is a FULL TIME job, and I respect her for it. My MOTHER is the HEAD of our household. [always considerate of the input from Daddy, of course] She makes the financial decisions, the family decisions, and everything else. My father asks for my MOTHER's opinion before he does most anything that will affect our family... and both of them work TOGETHER to be a strong unit.

My father is no slouch either.... and while he is the breadwinner, he doesn't expect my mother to be the 'wifey'. With FOUR daughters, he can't afford to be sexist. Luckily for him, he never was. He has ALSO helped to raise the kids, and he cooks, cleans, and washes laundry whenever he has time. There is no male/female doublestandard in our house.... and my mother doesn't work only because she doesnt need to. My father has helped to raise my sisters and I to be STRONG, WILLFULL, and to DEMAND respect from our male peers. the concept that has allowed OUR family to prosper is that we ALL have equal roles... and by RESPECTING each other, we are stronger than we would be apart. My parents love and most of all RESPECT each other, and they do whatever is necessary to help each other out. It is the way MY household will be run when I have children. And whether my husband makes the money or I do, we will BOTH have an equal role in our children's lives.... because a child needs a mother AND a father.

No, what we really NEED to do is raise our CHILDREN to TRANSCEND gender roles. To make the roles of breadwinner and homemaker UNISEX... and we need to teach our children to respect them SELVES and their partners. THAT is our ticket to a more complete and successful society. As Osiris pointed out, neither sex is more superior. We EACH bring something different to the table. And its when Women stop trying to be superior than men and VICE VERSA, its THEN that we'll realize we can stand on EACH OTHER'S shoulders to reach our goals... and THAT epiphany will be more beneficial than ANYONE being recognized as superior.

 

[DonDaddyD]

I think YOU ALL are being unfair to Sinosleep, from what I gathered he is talking mostly from his personal experience and his perspective and not statistics or the rare occurrence that he might see. Who are we to ell him the reality of what he lives each and everyday?

The guy has to do all the lifting, all the crap shitfts and get sprayed in the face by some superior officer shouting at him whilst he watches women who work alongside him do no heavy lifting, have all the good shifts and have the same superior officer go nicely on them. All the while getting paid the same as him.

And you all act like he has NO RIGHT to be PISSED??!???!?!?!

FUCK THAT! He didn't make the fucking rules, he just suffers them. And you know what it isn't FAIR it isn't equality no matter how you look at it. And seeing that it isn't he has a right to complain about it!

All he wants is for Woman to do the same job as him IF THEY ARE GETTING PAID THE SAME AS HIM! AND NOT DO LESS FOR THE SAME MONEY - He is talking equality here from a Man's perspective and if you speak out against that and support equal rights for woman then you are running close to being hypocritical in my oppinion.

I'm sorry for the harshness for this post but something stung me, you all are complaining about this:

Sinosleep wrote:
Don't tell me you want equal pay for doing the same job, and then NOT have the same requirements that I do.

All the guy is asking is that Women do the same job as him IF they are getting PAID THE SAME AS HIM. - What is wrong with that.

Look at it retrospectively Women have long since wanted to be paid the same as a MAN if they are doing the same job. - Which is right women should get paid the same for the same job.

So what is wrong with Sinosleep wanting the same?

 

[Black Widow]

I think youre overreacting, Daddy. Take a couple of slow breaths. Calm down.

What I said in regards to Sinosleep was rather simple. I NEVER said there was anything wrong with him wanting women to do the same work for the same pay.

what I DID say was that MEN mandate what he is displeased with... and getting fresh with the women HERE wouldn't get him ANYWHERE.

EVERYONE in the military is paid according to RANK, and SOME get specialty pay. black, white, purple, male, AND female. EQUALITY mandates that will never change

I NEVER said Sinosleep was wrong or that he should feel differently. I just wasnt having his attitude -- and I'm NOT having yours.

No hard feelings... I just didnt want you to think I was attacking him... and I'm sure you didnt mean to come across as abrasive as you did.