Let's Talk Abortion . . .

[ZorCrow]

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Wednesday, January 25, 2006

[FONT=Palatino,][SIZE=+2]Abortion stops a bleeding heart[/FONT]
[SIZE=-1]Posted: January 25, 2006
7:00 p.m. Eastern

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[FONT=Palatino,]By Ann Coulter
[SIZE=-1]© 2006 Ann Coulter [/SIZE]
The Democrats are trying to "reframe" their message to make people think they believe abortion is wrong. I think this is going to be a hard sell if they plan to continue ferociously defending abortion-on-demand right up until the moment the baby's head is through the birth canal.
But both the New York Times and the Washington Post have recently run op-eds by liberals calling for Democrats to abandon their single-minded devotion to Roe v. Wade.

In the Post, Richard Cohen said it was time for liberals to "untether abortion rights from Roe." Cohen admitted that conservatives (and "some liberals," he claimed implausibly) have a point when they say abortion ought to be decided by the states. This is another way of saying abortion is not a constitutional right. Kate Michelman: Call your abortion mill!
In the New York Times, William Saletan gently counseled feminists that it was time to admit: "It's bad to kill a fetus." And they say liberals have no values!
Even Jimmy Carter, the Democrats' idea of an evangelical Christian, has allowed that "I don't believe that Christ would approve of abortions." (Though Carter added that Christ would approve of abortion if "the mother's life or health was seriously endangered or the pregnancy resulted from rape or incest" – or if Jesus really, really needed the feminists to vote for him.)
It's been a long time coming, but the Democrats are finally throwing the NARAL ladies off the boat.
One by one, the Democratic Party keeps having to abandon all the insane positions that have made it the funny, silly party we've come to know and love.
The gun-control fanatics were thrown overboard after President Bill Clinton and a Democratic Congress passed the 1994 crime bill that banned so-called "assault weapons" – i.e., otherwise completely legal semiautomatic weapons that looked scary to Dianne Feinstein.
As a result, the Democrats lost Congress for the first time in 40 years and lost the South forever. When is the last time you heard a Democrat use the words "gun control"?
In 1995, the new Republican Congress sent a welfare reform bill to Clinton, a man who had campaigned on "mend it, don't end it" and then refused to do anything about it.
Not one Democrat resigned from the Clinton administration when Clinton turned out to be molesting the help and committing lots of felonies. But a whole slew of them resigned to protest Clinton's signing the Republicans' welfare reform bill.
You never hear a peep out of Democrats anymore about restoring government welfare programs to their former glory.
Now it's the abortion ladies' turn.
As Saletan informed feminists in his Times column:
"You can tell yourself that the pro-choice majority stayed home in the last election, or that they voted on other issues, or that Democrats botched the debate. But those excuses are getting tired. Sixteen years ago, as the behavior of voters and politicians showed, abortion was clearly a winning issue for you. Now it isn't. You have a problem."

It's finally happened: Abortion stopped a bleeding heart.
I guess Sandra Day O'Connor's demand that "the contending sides" on abortion "end their national division" and accept the court's diktat in Roe didn't work out for her.
As Abraham Lincoln said of another moral blight on the nation supported by Democrats: You can "repeal the Declaration of Independence – repeal all past history – you still cannot repeal human nature. It will still be the abundance of man's heart, that slavery extension is wrong; and out of the abundance of his heart, his mouth will continue to speak."
Or, as Justice Antonin Scalia said, the court's refusal to overrule the lawless Roe decision would not stand because of "the twin facts that the American people love democracy and the American people are not fools."
With even liberals backing away from Roe, apparently the last group of people on Earth to realize the Supreme Court's abortion jurisprudence is a catastrophe is going to be the Supreme Court.

Related special offer:
"Struggling for Life"

[FONT=palatino,]Ann Coulter, well-known for her TV appearances as a political analyst, is an attorney and author. Want to know what she is really like? Check out these hot products!</B>[/FONT]
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Now for the folks of you who support abortion, why do you support it?
Secondly what would you do if Abortion became illegal again? Also what would be the Social costs of making abortion illegal?

 

[Black Widow]

Also about abortion, THESE ARE FROM WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN ASKED WHO HAVE HAD THEM. It's their responses Binder not mine, if they said for "rape, abuse or incest" then that's what I would have said. Instead the answers were, "I didn't want a child, I had enough already, just didn't like the guy anyore . blah , blah, blah."

Crow, you can't project the immorality of a few women you know onto the entire female american population... that's not right. That's like me blaming ALL men because some of them are rapists and like to force women into submission in every way possible... not fair at all, is it, for me to treat YOU like a disease just because of other men's motivations?

Arguing that abortion should be illegal because some women you know use it for the wrong reasons is like outlawing GUNS because SOME people use them to hurt others....its not LOGICAL, and its a WEAK arguement.

Abortion is NOT something to take lightly... and what IF a woman was raped and became pregnant, and didnt want to have some strange criminal's child? What say you to THAT? Personally, I wouldn't just pop into the clinic for any old reason... if I was CAPABLE of providing the child with shelter, food and clothing, then REGARDLESS of what the child's father decided about his involvement, I would have the baby... don't get the wrong impression, I'm not all against having children or some mess like that.... I LOVE babies and everytime I see one I wish I could have one of my OWN.... but at this point in my LIFE... bringing a child into the world would be to the detriment of both the CHILD, and myself.

I am PRO-CHOICE throughout every fiber of my being, and the reason is quite simple... It is MY BODY, MY LIFE, and ultimately MY DECISION.... NOT some man's. NOT the court systems.

[FONT=palatino, times new roman, georgia, times][FONT=Palatino,] Even Jimmy Carter, the Democrats' idea of an evangelical Christian, has allowed that "I don't believe that Christ would approve of abortions."[/FONT][/FONT]

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Okay, this is the part where I roll my eyes. Excuse me a moment....

I don't believe Christ would approve of HALF the shit people do the world over.... so take THAT and wind it back.
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[Mat]

Dude...Ann Coulter?

<thinks about it for a minute>

ANNE FUCKING COULTER!!!???

She is the worst bile spitter the Republicans have. She gives a bad name to the GOP. I plead that you never post anything of hers again...ever. Please, Zor. As one man who respects where you're coming from continually, even if we tend to disagree more than not.

Alright, with that out of the way. Here's my stance on abortion. Pro Choice (shocker, I know).

Common arguments I hear from people who are against abortion (and which I will respond to immediately) are:

"There are so many people who want kids that can't have them. Have the baby and give it up for adoption"

There are literally hundreds of thousands of children in developing nations with no homes, no parents, and no food. Don't tell me there are more parents waiting for kids than there are children because that's pure bullshit. Maybe white parents waiting for white kids. It still isn't a viable argument to me.

"The mother doesn't have the right to kill the child. The child's life is its own."

That child is going to be growing inside of the woman for nine months. As far as I'm concerned, every human being has a right to choose who they allow along for the ride, as it were. Being pregnant and the physically detrimental factors can severely mess up a person's life and if they don't want to go through with that, then they shouldn't have to.

"Abortion is murder"

Murder is defined as:

The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

No. Abortion is not murder because it is currently legal and it is *never* done with malice. Apathy maybe, but never malice. Girls don't get pregnant so they can destroy the life growing in their bodies.

But abortion is killing something. Of that I have no doubt. That heartbeat is there in record time and that kid is always alive by the time the abortion is performed. So why am I still pro-choice knowing that an innocent life is being snuffed-out?

Because that kid is basically brain dead for the majority of those months it's legal to have the abortion. Because it isn't sentient yet and to me it's akin to taking someone on life support off that life support because they can't live on their own. We can all argue until we're blue in the face about God and souls and when that soul is in the body but all I know is that we're stopping something from becoming a person, which to me is far different than killing a person.

I'm sure many of you will disagree with this and that's fine. Abortion is one of those rare topics that I think no one can be either wholly wrong or right about. But as far as I'm concerned Americas women need to have the right to decide for themselves whether or not to go through it with no pressure from anyone and with the best medical care that can be provided for them.

 

[Karma]

I have ENOUGH!

i have a headache.

Zorcrow, you AMAZE me with the imbeciles whose biased rhetoric bullshit you try to pass off as knowledgeable information.

Ann Coulter is a pathetic bitch who is a DISGRACE to women and feminism. This woman is completely out of touch.

THIS IS FOR EVERY "ANTI ABORTION"/"PRO LIFER" here or ANYWHERE ELSE:


[RANT]AS A WOMAN, I am REALLY FED UP with the fact that a WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE is being attacked by MEN, the GOVERNMENT, RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS, and everyone else.

WOMEN ON THE BOARD, i dont care if your conservative, liberal, republican , democrate or whatever else. do you REALLY want MEN, religious extremists and anyone else with a mouth who thinks they have something to say DECIDING WHAT RIGHTS YOU HAVE WITH YOUR OWN FUCKING BODY!?

People are SO QUICK to blame and villify WOMEN for making the choice they feel is right for them. WHO THE FUCK CARES WHAT YOU THINK!? and YES i am getting personal with this shit...because I've had an abortion!

Yes, im taking this moment to reveal one of the most personal details of my life and if ANYONE has a problem with that..you can LEAVE the fucking board! you dont know me..you dont know what circumstances i had..so KEEP YOUR SHORT SIGHTED OPINIONS TO YOURSELVES!

EVERY WOMAN who has an abortion isnt doing it as a means of "birth control". being "Pro choice" doesnt mean your PRO ABORTION..it means you understand and realize that WOMEN should have THEIR RIGHT TO CHOOSE!

this topic has ALWAYS been a sore subject for me...and now, i'm sorry for being so bitchy but i cant take it anymore! I cant take the religious people/rabid pro lifers using their own warped and skewed point of view to justify going out and hurting/KILLING doctors and workers at Women's Clinics; harrassing the patients of those clinics and trying to cause problems for the business who provide support to the operations of those clinics. WHERE IS THE SENSE IN THAT? you think abortion is wrong so you go out and hurt and kill OTHER PEOPLE? what does that do?

you have MEN who dont know JACK SHIT about how to raise a child telling WOMEN that if they become pregnant because they have uprotected sex that its ALL THEIR FAULT and that they should "be responsible and take care of the result"...but WAIT...how about its JUST AS MUCH THE GUY'S FAULT because HIS DUMB ASS LAID DOWN WITH HER and HE couldve just as easily INSISTED he wear a condom. so it goes BOTH ways...when it comes to the blame game about why those women who DO use abortion as "birth control" for that purpose. If they laid down with an asshole who has NO INTENTION of helping them raise this child, they have NO WAY to provide it and no family to help them..isnt it BETTER to terminate the pregnancy then have them give birth and then abandon the child in the dumpster ??

trust and believe that if these DUMB ASS MEN have their way and these OUT OF TOUCH law makers give in to the rabid pro lifers....there will be FAR MORE stories and cases of babies being abused, killed, dumed in garbage cans and WORSE.

for all you self righteous sons of bitches who think you have all the answers...you take YOUR ASSES to the adoption clinics and foster care agencies and you sign up to adopt every last child that is born to a mother who cant take care of it and has no other options...and you make sure you fill up your houses with the thousands of babies who you dont want to see dumped into trash cans by desperate young women who have no idea what to do and are scared to death.

you talk all this shit..lets see what YOU would do if you were in the WOMAN'S POSITION![/RANT]

 

[DonDaddyD]

If the choice was taken away from my Mum and she was forced to keep me then I doubt she would have loved me as much. The fact that she decided (and it was her choice) to keep me in light of the abortion option makes my existence that much more worthwhile. I'd hate to live knowing that I was unwanted.

My Mother was allowed a choice when she was 19 and decided to keep me...... My Mum's resolve was further strengthed by my Father's and I feel Men (or the Man responsible) has a big part to play. If not for my Father's words I may have been just an unplanned thought.

But then I've had to see my friends go through the same issue and choose abortion and a part of me always thinks that could so easily have been me. So I don't know if I do agree with it.

I know about the circumstances argument my parents started with ZERO and a son. It would have been easier for them to have me aborted - they couldn't support themselves totally and me but I turned out alright - I think. I've seen what I could have had given that my brother is 12 yrs younger than me and in my mind it doesn't make a difference. The love I got more than equals any of the wealth my brother is brought up with - but would there have been love if my Mum and Father were stripped of their choice? I argue that given their situation they would have had to have questioned whether they could love me in order too love me and have me. As love is all they could give at the time - they had little of anything else.

Arguably the parenting my bro receives is better than the one I got. But I wouldn't change my childhood or schooling to his private schooling and material itemed blessed childhood for the World. I am not jealous of the circumstances that saw me enter this World compared to my brother. I have a unique experience and perspective on wealth family and seeing my parents grow from young adults to adults. They are good and caring parents at all stages of their lives none the less because they chose to be and not forced to be.

Whether I agree or not with abortion is irrelevant it is totally up to the individual and you cannot assume to dictate to someone what they think is right for them. All I know is that if you remove choice then there will be a lot of resented unloved and victimised children in the World. People need to decide whether they have enough love or are capable of handling the responsibility in order to do the job properly. Worse thing is to force someone to have a child they don't want.

 

[Rampage]

I'm not in favor of aboloshing abortion for these reasons:
1) What the hell do you do with the young prospective mothers and doctors who do it anyway? Put them in jail? She just made the hardest choice of her life and you want to throw her life away. That's two lives tossed away by your counting, and one too many by mine.
2) The end of abortion in this country will not REALLY end abortion in this country. It will end it ONLY for the poor and middle class. Daddy's little rich slut (You know, the ones that REALLY use abortion for birth control?) will go overseas or to Canada, or they will charter abortion cruises that will take them to international waters to do the deed.
3) There is no way to make sure that the woman's right to live is protected if there are no abortion options. You get a woman who is pregnant, but she and the doctor know that without an abortion she will die and the child will die, most likely. At what point do you get a doctor with the courage to risk prosecution, knowing that he will have to prove a negative, that the woman could not have safely taken the child to term?
4) It's the woman's body, in the end. You will legislate tyranny against the living in exchange for the safety of that which MAY live.
5) What the hell do you do with the kids? In this country, a woman who is forced to have a child could just take it to a police, fire, or EMT station after birth and leave. That will result in an explosion of lost kids in the US, and we are doing a shitty enough job taking care of the ones in the system now.
Just some thoughts...

 

[DonDaddyD]

After my very revealing/personal post (Spells you are right you can feel comfortable expressing yourself freely here without reproach) I wanted to add that having had a scare once with an ex-girlfriend I would want to support her or whomever I got pregnant whatever their decision. - And YES I know the totallity of WHAT THAT MEANS. It is in part why I don't tend too sleep (ahem) because a part of me doesn't agree with abortion though I see why some would do it. Though I don't agree with taking away a womans choice.

Another hard question is what if the Man wants to keep the child and the Women doesn't? The unborn baby is as much as the Mans as the Womans.

 

[Clairvoyance]

When it comes to abortion my feelings are unbelievably EXTREMELY mixed. I cannot decide which is right or which is wrong on this subject. All I know is that once a child is conceived it is a living thing. No living thing is horrible enough to be killed before it has at least a chance at life. On the other hand women shouldn’t have to go through pregnancy if they don’t think that they’d be able to give the unborn child an education, love, support, and/or anything and everything else a small human needs. I’m not typing that abortion is right, though I’m not saying it’s wrong…but I DO believe that it should NOT take place after the baby has reached the certain stage where it is visible as a very small human.

That’s just murder in my brain. So after writing that….I don’t like abortion, but sometimes children just grow up in broken homes and on the street. I don’t support abortion. I think that if you don’t want your baby then give it up for adoption. I’m suffering from insomnia at the moment so if this post seems childish or off topic then blame my sleeplessness.

 

[Foxfire]

** Yanks Farrah back into her corner and sits her ass down. Massaging her shoulders. **

I applaud you for your passionate post. I sat here shocked from your confession but heartfelt from the emotion you poured into it.


As for my opinon, everyone has already spoken how I feel but I'll say it again.

I think Abortion should be a woman's choice, not a man's. Why? Because he's not the one carrying a baby. It is sad to have an abortion but sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures. Not everything is black or white, sometimes I've come to realize a gray area.

I think no government should tell a woman what they can and cannot do. I think they should keep abortion. I always had this debate with college friends of mine. My friend Rebecca was all for Bush and very religious, she felt abortions were "evil" where as I felt they were "needed" and should be kept.

Its a woman's choice and it should be that way.

 

[DonDaddyD]

Understandably it is the Woman's choice her body and her nine months. But I don't know if I could forgive a person if she was carrying my child and decided on an abortion if I REALLY wanted to keep it and she didn't consider me - In a way it seems selfish, though I am fully it really isn't. I would like to go as far as to say 'if you don't want the child then let me bring it up and you can have as MUCH or as LITTLE as you want'.

I know it is a little more complicated than that. but I want my kids we men have our emotional attchments and aspirations for our unborn babies as well.

 

[eponinethen]

Understandably it is the Woman's choice her body and her nine months. But I don't know if I could forgive a person if she was carrying my child and decided on an abortion if I REALLY wanted to keep it and she didn't consider me - In a way it seems selfish, though I am fully it really isn't. I would like to go as far as to say 'if you don't want the child then let me bring it up and you can have as MUCH or as LITTLE as you want'.

I know it is a little more complicated than that. but I want my kids we men have our emotional attchments and aspirations for our unborn babies as well.

Well that makes all kinds of sense and all, but if you'd have very different views on it, I'm afraid I'd have to say it's got to be the woman's choice.
I'll all pro choice. Having just had this discussion at AD I'm not gonna rant as much as I did there.. But basically, it's an extremely difficult question, which is exactly why we can't have one[] answer for it, which is why it's got to be a choice. Sure, think through it tons of time and all but in the end it's gotta be your own choice what you do with your body etc.

 

[mrfolson]

A woman should have a choice of her own body, pending on the situtation. What if, a woman is raped by a fool and get pregnant in the process, she should have every right to abort if she feels like its necessary. There might be the chances of a life threatening situtation. Then, you have young ladies getting pregnant by dummies who don't even care about them before they turn 16yrs old, and the parents might feel its in their best interest to abort. My wife an I fall into that category, we were way too young to raise a child so we aborted. Thats all in the past now, and we have 3 wonderful young girls to raise and mold. So, Spell, Don't let anyone get you all worked up on something you did in the past, no one knows your situtation. No one on this earth is perfect, we all have made mistakes, only thing is can anyone own up to the mistakes they've made? I can an I have.

 

[sinosleep]

I woke up not too long ago and have to go to wok in 10 minutes so I can only post a snippet of my opinion here, but I had to get at least this part out. Not sure if anyone's actually done it yet, but how can anyone possibly harp about it being just as much the MAN'S responsibility then turn around and say it's 100% the WOMAN'S choice? I mean do you guys not realize how HUGE a friggen contradiction that is?

 

[Osiris]

Im getting sick and tired of the abortion "debate" their really isnt one, religious or secular.

Religiously speaking: The major 3 Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all believe that Abortion is wrong and is akin to murder in some form or another.

However, many of those that are so-called "pro-life" seem to forget that each of the Abrahamic faiths, believe that men/womens ultimate fate(s) rely on their own INDIVIDUAL actions and choices not those forced on by another.

Most religious jurists also state that to interfere with ones God given right of free-will is sinful as well.

So, as a so-called Islamic zealot, that doesnt believe in abortions, I believe that a woman has the right to do what ever she chooses to do, and noone man or woman has the right to deny her.

Furthermore, our so-called secular law is supposed to apply to ALL citizens and be applied equally, how or why should I remotely expect to force my beliefs on another fellow citizen? They have the same rights as I do in this country period. And this also applies to the gay marriage "debate".

 

[Clara Oswald]

I woke up not too long ago and have to go to wok in 10 minutes so I can only post a snippet of my opinion here, but I had to get at least this part out. Not sure if anyone's actually done it yet, but how can anyone possibly harp about it being just as much the MAN'S responsibility then turn around and say it's 100% the WOMAN'S choice? I mean do you guys not realize how HUGE a friggen contradiction that is?

When Men actually start taking that responsibility, then they can have a say in what I do. When Men start being fine with waiting until marriage/they conciously decide to have a child to have sex, then they can tell me I can't have an abortion if that's right for me.

 

[Mat]

As far as I'm concerned, it's the man's responsibility to support his woman's decision 100%, whatever that may be. In that sense, it's not a contradiction. Is the pregnancy his responsibility? No, if she has a baby then the child is his responsibility.

Is it fair for men to have no say in whether or not their child is born? A part of me wants to say no. But it's not my body holding the baby for 9 months.

 

[Clara Oswald]

In a perfect world the decision would be made together...

 

[DonDaddyD]

As far as I'm concerned, it's the man's responsibility to support his woman's decision 100%, whatever that may be. In that sense, it's not a contradiction. Is the pregnancy his responsibility? No, if she has a baby then the child is his responsibility.

Is it fair for men to have no say in whether or not their child is born? A part of me wants to say no. But it's not my body holding the baby for 9 months.

But it is your baby (growing inside her) as well.

If the man has no say no rights then the Woman wouldn't need 50% of a Man's gene's to get pregnant.

 

[Rampage]

Yeah in a perfect world. But Sinosleep has a point that many men quietly make. The point is woman has the choice to parent or not to parent. The man has no such choice. if a woman wants, she can have an abortion. If she chooses against it, the man has to pay until that child is grown, If he wants and loves kids and would keep the child bu the woman does ot, she can abort. If she has the child and decided to put it up for adoption or abandon it at a police station, she can. But the man...absolutely not.
These scenarios will be the big unwritten reason abortion goes down, if it does. I hope abortion stays, but I think that if one clings to a right without acknowledging the advantages it gives and the potential for abuse, then they risk losing that right.

 

[Mat]

But it is your baby (growing inside her) as well.

If the man has no say no rights then the Woman wouldn't need 50% of a Man's gene's to get pregnant.

I used-to have a majorly pro-life friend who was worried he got a one-night stand pregnant once. When prompted, he said that he would do everything in his power to convince her to keep his baby if she indeed was pregnant.

Getting drunk and getting your jollies off with some girl doesn't give you the right to dictate whether or not she spends the next 9 months of her life paying for a mistake the two of you made the night before. Especially if you're not emotionally invested with her like in the situation described above.

I don't think donating an army of our little soldiers gives us any right to say anything, unless we were sleeping with the girl with mutual intent to get her pregnant in the first place. That's a whole other can of worms (and highly unlikely).