Madonna Adopts a brown baby.

[DonDaddyD]

Now I titled this controversially becuase I'm pissed at all the radio discussions and public discussions that people are having with various issues including the fact that the child is black.

Madonna adopted a African baby (from Malawi) and many MANY people in my Country felt that this was a publicity stunt. Not to mention that she did so without the need to go through the proper adotption checks.

So I put it to the board do you feel that it was 'right' for her to adopt this child, taking it away from its culture and cultural identity? Should she have given a sizeable donnation to help 30 kids in Malawi instead of caring for one. Critics of her action would argue that there is no attachment to the child needed to maintain a successful adoption given the speed at which she was allowed to adopt him and this carried the implications of her almost shopping for a baby like a pair of shoes.

Personally I think it was a great act she, yes she only adopted one person, but at least she helped one person it was certainly better than none.

 

[Karma]

the child is ONE year old. he has no "concept" of identity or awareness of the things that you speak of and thus far, he has spent his young life in a disgusting orphanage since his mother died during child birth.

Madonna is ALREADY a mother (times 2) and a damn good one by all accounts (unlike Britney Spears ) so she obviously knows what kind of time, effort, sacrifice and discipline is required.

and why is it that MADONNA adopting an african child is causing such a stir when Angelina Jolie has already done it...TWICE?


what is it worth to leave a child steeped in poverty for the sake of "identity" when he/she has the chance to live a healthy life and they will get the best education, social experience and other things that money can buy?

 

[Clara Oswald]

Would this still be an issue if she had adopted a Russian baby?

 

[Karma]

it's a white woman....arguably the most famous white woman and most powerfull white woman in america's music industry adopting an african/black child.

i can imagine people on the RPMB board (that den of remedial idiots) are probably losing what little minds they have over this.


its ALWAYS an issue when a white woman marries or dates a black man or adopts a black child but again...Angelina Jolie did it..and no one has said anything about HER?

 

[Clara Oswald]

Would anyone have a problem if it was...say...Angela Bassett adopting a white baby?

 

[DonDaddyD]

Ok Vilandra, I think any black person adopting any child from any race other than their own would come under criticism by ALL.

SpellBinder it is an EQUAL issue for both parties when they may choose to get invovled with other races in a variety of ways.

I don't really have an issue with Madonna lifting a child (who still has his Dad by the way - the Father gave him away) out of poverty. what I have an issue with is the way it was done. I don't give a damn if it was the pope there is a proceedure and she was able to ignore that go to Africa and pick up a baby with the cutest eyes.

Moreover YES I do have an issue with the fact that this child may never truly understand its roots and culture. Yes the millions she can throw at the child will be beneficial but so is an understanding of who he is, who his people are and where he came from. Seeing my culture so diluted as it is and black kids thinking that their last name is primarily black matters to me. I don't give a fuck black people ALL black people need to know who they are, where they come from and why SOME treat them the way they do.

But (after my rant) I think ultimately her action was just and honourable I just don't like how it was done.

 

[Karma]

people like YOU are the reason why interracial adoptions are still so frowned upon. if Angela Bassett adopted a white child, i'd be happy for the child. Maybe i'm in the minority...but i just dont feel that RACE should be such an issue in matters of who is capable of loving and raising which child.

there are plenty of black families in america who, because of their wealth or other circumstances have children that are often labled by their peers as "sellouts" for "not being black enough" ..what about THEM? do they not know their "identity" because they came from privilaged backgrounds? is the fact that a black child will be raised by Madonna such a blow to the black community? One of her children is ALREADY bi-racial (Lourdes' father is black)...and yet she has sole physical custody of her. how come no one complains about that?

if you had read any RECENT articles about Madonna's adoption..it was stated by the officials in the country where the adoption is taking place that Madonna HAS followed "procedure and that a judge had given the interim order allowing Madonna and her husband to take the child home with them." it also has been noted that once the judge signs the papers, the adoption is complete.

the FATHER of the baby stated that "madonna promised me she would bring David back to visit as he grew up."

Madonna choosing to help a child who has no mother is HARDLY grounds to accuse her (or anyone in her position) of dilluting a culture. children need parents, they need love and stability. OBVIOUSLY the father can't provide it and if someone else wants to...then why shouldnt they be able to?

 

[DonDaddyD]

There is nothing wrong with me wanting the children of my race to be culturally aware, absolutely nothing! That is something Madonna cannot give. BUT if you actually READ what I am saying I stated that her action of taking a child out of poverty supersedes that what she cannot GIVE.

And I've read the whole adoption process I know about the judge. You think if it wasn't Madonna (and the potential money she could throw at the country) that that person would be able to do what Madonna has done. This is a life they are giving her they should have taken her through the proper proceedures to make sure this adoption was the best fit.

 

[Arkaine]

Isn't it a little too early for us to argue that Madonna won't teach the child their own culture?

How, may I ask, was she able to skip the procedure, by the way?

 

[Karma]

Isn't it a little too early for us to argue that Madonna won't teach the child their own culture?

so far, its really only one person that claims Madonna can't teach or help the child be aware of his culture. as if its BETTER to leave him in a poverty, disease riddled place where the child mortality rate is extreme high..all for the sake of his "culture" and "roots".

this kind of criticism always happens when a WHITE WOMAN dates a black man or adopts a black child.

and people wonder why there are such irrational, almost barbaric attitudes towards interracial dating/marriage and families.

as for her "getting around" the process. most articles state that she followed proper adoption procedures.

 

[Arkaine]

I just don't understand how Madonna could get around the procedures. If there's any evidence to the contrary then I'd like someone arguing that point to present it. It seems like just general biting with no real back up.

As for people accusing Madonna of taking a child out of their natural culture.. there wasn't any of this when Angelina Jolie adopted her Madox and Zahara. Why is it coming up now?

Also, when people say that she could pay off a lot of dept that she used to adopt one child. I ask of anyone who argues this to actually tell me that they forgo things they want in order to donate to the less fortunate. I know I certainly don't. I come first, charity gets what I can spare. Why should Madonna be any different?

 

[Karma]

As for people accusing Madonna of taking a child out of their natural culture.. there wasn't any of this when Angelina Jolie adopted her Madox and Zahara. Why is it coming up now?

i brought up the same thing and yet no one responded.

Also, when people say that she could pay off a lot of dept that she used to adopt one child. I ask of anyone who argues this to actually tell me that they forgo things they want in order to donate to the less fortunate. I know I certainly don't. I come first, charity gets what I can spare. Why should Madonna be any different?

I wonder that myself. since when do "other people" dictate how someone should choose to spend their money? if someone wants to adopt a child, why shouldnt they? people complain that "NOT ENOUGH black babies/children" are adopted all the time (at least in America they do) and yet suddenly when Madonna does it, she's committing some kind of cultural genocide or something? and they say "why cant she use her money to benefit ALL the children instead of adopting just one?"

that seems a very impertinent thing for outsiders to suggest to someone just because they are a celebrity.

 

[DonDaddyD]

Ok I'm getting sick of this! Farrah stop trying to make WHITE WOMEN the victimised few, IF a BLACK person was to do the same they would come under the same scrutiny - well in my Country at least.

I never said that leaving the child in poverty because she [Madonna] cannot teach the child its culture was better than taking him out of poverty. - Show me where I've said that. WHAT I SAID was that she cannot truly (as a white person) teach the child his cultural identity. But I do not expect you to truly understand or even have a persepctive of what the importance of being aware of such a thing means to someone like me, it does not stop the fact that knowing a cultural identity isn't important though.

I have argued for days with black people that what she has done is ultiamtely a GOOD thing.

Considering speculation of her actions and motivation is still (some three days later) thick within the British papers, I thought this was a good topic to raise. Most articles I have read have implied this adoption as an attempt to save her marriage, a publicity stunt and the most extreme shopping for a baby as though it was like shopping for a pair of shoes. Applying for adoption takes a good 6 months at least with the authorities investigating the applicants and their lives. But because of who Madonna is she was able to take the issue to a court and overturn the proceedure so that she can simply fly over to Africa and pick up a baby within days.

I have not mentioned Angelina Jolie becuase her actions have not raised as much controversy within the papers as Madonna's has. I had hoped to raise a multisided debate here, I forgot interracial actions is a taboo subject here.

I'll say this one final time I have no problem with her adopting a BLACK CHILD, I have a problem with the fact that the adoption authorities have overlooked their proceedure because of who she is.

I almost regret making this thread.

 

[Arkaine]

So you're saying that if it weren't Madonna a person adopting wouldn't be able to take the court action that she did? Because, honestly, I'm not buying that. She may have more money and respect than a lot of people but I really don't see them being so blatent with disregarding their own procedures for a single celebrity.

Also, I don't think really cultural identity is really that big of an issue. Is it not true that culture is, in and of itself, adopted from where you grow up, rather than where you're born? After all, one could argue that there's cultural identity of each state in America (with, say, Texan CI being different than Califorian CI) and yet there is inter-state adoptions allowed in America without anyone even batting an eyelid.

I'm not saying your points were because of inter-racial (though you did mention her being a "white person" -- implying that does play a part in your argument) I was strictly asking questions of where the proof is that Madonna forwent adoption procedures and made a statement that it would seem too early to really speculate that she would not show the child his (her? -- I'm not too well up on the subject) roots. After all, if anyone had the money and time to do this it would be someone like Madonna.

 

[Rampage]

In most Third World countris, celebrity and money will alow you some leeway, just as it does her in thge US. Trust me, Madonna could also get a kid here in nothing flat, if for no other reason than her life is already public (very little investigation needed) and you do not have to worry abouot the child's care ($$$$).
As for cultural identity, i find it to be somewhat overrated as a person of African descent. I have no idea what tribe I am roiginally from or where my African roots lie. Unfortunately, that was already dead with the child's parents. The child deserves the best they can find for her, and Madonna is it.
Finally, I have heard about people who cry cultural genocide when whites adopt children of color. I suggest that those poeple adopt as many children as they can afford then and give them this elusive education they are supposed to be getting. The key is that these children have already lost the ideal upbringing. Begrudge them SOMETHING and leave them be, for God's sake.
Just my two cents...

 

[Karma]

and Madonna ALSO has two children of her own already (one of whom is bi-racial) and from all ccounts (interviews from herself in her own book in 2003 as well as interviews with powerfull celebrity friends like Gwenyth Paltrow and Rosie O'Donnell...who are also mothers) she's a very good mother. she believes in discipline, keeps her children away from media saturatioin and tries to instill a mixture of the values her father (a catholic) taughter as well as the ideas of common sense living from Kabbalah.

as far as i'm concerned, this child is going to be better off in Madonna's care than he ever would have been where he was up till this time.


if this were REVERSED and Angela Bassett was adopting a white baby...or some other prominent black celebrity couple were adopting a "white" baby, i would have no problem with it. threads like THIS actually REMIND me that there are people who make such a fuss over race. I feel like if a person WANTS to adopt a child (or more) and can provide them with the best possible life that people like Madonna and Angela Bassett can afford...then HAVE AT IT. race shouldnt be an issue.

 

[Clara Oswald]

Why do people act like Africa is one country? The issue would be the same if she adopted a Russian baby. But anyway...

I recently read an article in a magazine (I forget which one) where they discussed "Do celebrities really get special treatment when adopting children?" And the answer was no, that they still had to go through all the same checks and balances as other people. BUT the fact that they have a lot of money and can provide readily for the child makes the decision easier. It would be the same if it was any other multi millionaire.

 

[DonDaddyD]

Sebastian; I never knew that my credibility needed me to have to physically prove something I paraphrased from several Newspapers reporting the same thing.

But since you so requested it, here are two sites that I found (on a quick search) that dance around the issue (amongst others) of her adoption process:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/04102006/323/madonna-set-adopt-orphaned-malawian-boy.html

"The government might waive this condition depending on the situation because it is Malawi which will benefit, if it is for the betterment of the child."

A government official said the US singer and actress, who already has two children of her own, may be spared the usual adoption procedures once she has identified the youngster.

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/tm_headline=madonna-s-tot-david-in-kidnap-fear-&method=full&objectid=17933170&siteid=62484-name_page.html

“The adoption has brought a string of complaints from children's groups in Malawi - furious that Madonna has seemed to be able to fast-track the adoption process, which requires prospective parents to live in Malawi for a year before they can adopt”

Now I ask; ‘has she lived in that Country for a year?’ So what part of proper procedure has she adhered to?

Secondly Sebastian, I may have pointed out that Madonna’s being white as a signifier of her potentially being unable to truly teach the young boy his heritage as being fact. Yet that has nothing to do with the fact that I do still think the adoption in and of itself is appropriate, an act of kindness and goodwill. Especially when I have clearly stated that the life she will give the boy outweighs the cultural identity he would have had he been left in his country. But then that is too easy to say because wealth, money and being able to throw riches at a person does not automatically breed a better person when things such as values and understanding are so important to a persons introspective development.

Like most things in life Sebastian a subject/topic is multifaceted or for want of a better phrase ‘there are two sides to a story/debate.’ From my perspective I am only trying to raise all the issues that are important to me whilst acknowledging the aspect of the debate that I ultimately agree with – call it devils advocate if you must. In this case the fact that Madonna did circumnavigate proper procedure and what she cannot give the child (which truthfully is very little) I do not agree with but at the same time can accept that and agree that the entire action [adoption of a child in poverty] is undoubtedly the greater good. Am I not allowed to say I like something whilst at the same time disagreeing with so aspects of the same act? Must I totally be 100% behind something in order to justify my support of it? What I had intended here was not to stand on one side of a debate and argue to win my point and prove my opinion over another persons (I do not need to do that I do not discuss to win, but to grow). I had hoped to simply discuss all sides of the issue without being labelled to gain better understanding.

Moving on…..

I feel that Madonna’s being famous and in the public’s eye does not mean we should trust her, nor does it mean that we know her. Everyone has private aspects to their lives and everyone has skeletons in closets. To even think that because an aspect of her life is within the public’s eye we know her and should trust her blindly is terribly naïve, that’s how child abuse happens because people don’t consider what they do not and cannot see, the whole point of the extensive reviews for adoption is to ascertain that the more personal details of an applicants life is as appropriate as what they are willing to show. Ask yourselves how do you know she truly is a good Mother? Simply because the TV and paparazzi tell you so is not good enough.

There are days when I am mistreated within my society and I wonder why, truth is I know why, there are times when I can look at something (that my other friends can’t) with pride and my determination to achieve academically was motivated because of some unbelievable stereotypes when I was younger. Understanding all of that is part of my cultural heritage and my identity. Understanding my cultural identity is why I won’t allow anyone to call me nigger, it is why I strive not to live up to a stereotype glamorised with negative images and it is why I have a clear understanding of the prejudice against me and the negative stigma aimed by the narrowminded many. For me my identity, my knowledge of self is very important because it makes me who I am it helps me understand not only my race’s position in the World but my own. To say that it isn’t important is to simply ignore a person’s history. I’m not saying that I need to know my tribe (back in Africa) because that would be impossible, what I am saying that simply knowing who I am and where I came from (I.e. my great-grandfather etc) adds to the personal make-up of my self identity. Without knowing my culture as intimately as I do I wouldn't be and as a black person (like some others I know) I would feel lost.

“As you remove them from their lands you run the risk of severing their roots and creating a generation without a sense of true identity.”

I want to point out that the Childs father is still alive.

In truth it is sad that race has everything to do with this but then that has ultimately been the history of the World. It doesn’t in my mind make it right however. Yet I am searching for examples of a black person adopting a white child and cannot think of any. Possibly because of the awareness that Black people have in regards to the abuse they have had to endure in the past (and still today), so if a rich black person was to adopt they are more inclined to adopt there own before anything else. Harsh and I may get it in the ear (from some) for saying it but it is true.

Not that I agree wholeheartedly with it being that way but at the same time (truthfully) if I was going to adopt I would most likely adopt a black child. And dare I say if each person was to ask themselves the same thing; ‘if you had no children and had to adopt would you prefer the child to be of your ethnicity?’ they would mostly say the same thing.

But as i keep saying what she [Madonna] has done is ultimately a good and kindhearted thing, there are aspect i simply disagree with.

 

[Arkaine]

Sebastian; I never knew that my credibility needed me to have to physically prove something I paraphrased from several Newspapers reporting the same thing.

I had never called your credibility into doubt, however since you wanted a fair debate I think it would be only appropriate for you to cite your sources. After all, I don't read British newspapers and, as I'm sure you're aware, a lot of other people on thos board wouldn't even have access to them. Asking you to tell me what papers you garnered your information from was to educate myself, rather than to call any of your credibility into question. I was not going to dredge through every British newspaper website on the internet for a mini-debate on Madonna's adoption procedures.

But since you so requested it, here are two sites that I found (on a quick search) that dance around the issue (amongst others) of her adoption process:

Now I ask; ‘has she lived in that Country for a year?’ So what part of proper procedure has she adhered to?

I don't see how this proves anything. The athorities in the country seem to have a clause already in their laws that state that if its for the betterment of the child then such procedure can be waived. It says so right in that quote you posted.

Secondly Sebastian, I may have pointed out that Madonna’s being white as a signifier of her potentially being unable to truly teach the young boy his heritage as being fact. Yet that has nothing to do with the fact that I do still think the adoption in and of itself is appropriate, an act of kindness and goodwill. Especially when I have clearly stated that the life she will give the boy outweighs the cultural identity he would have had he been left in his country. But then that is too easy to say because wealth, money and being able to throw riches at a person does not automatically breed a better person when things such as values and understanding are so important to a persons introspective development.

Cultural Identity has nothing to do where a person is born. It is the individual feeling of belonging to a group. So Madonna may be changing what cultural identity the child would have if it stayed but who are we to claim which identity is more appropriate?

Like most things in life Sebastian a subject/topic is multifaceted or for want of a better phrase ‘there are two sides to a story/debate.’ From my perspective I am only trying to raise all the issues that are important to me whilst acknowledging the aspect of the debate that I ultimately agree with – call it devils advocate if you must. In this case the fact that Madonna did circumnavigate proper procedure and what she cannot give the child (which truthfully is very little) I do not agree with but at the same time can accept that and agree that the entire action [adoption of a child in poverty] is undoubtedly the greater good. Am I not allowed to say I like something whilst at the same time disagreeing with so aspects of the same act? Must I totally be 100% behind something in order to justify my support of it? What I had intended here was not to stand on one side of a debate and argue to win my point and prove my opinion over another persons (I do not need to do that I do not discuss to win, but to grow). I had hoped to simply discuss all sides of the issue without being labelled to gain better understanding.

Oh Christ, I'm sorry but this is getting ridiculous. Quit with the victimization. You posted a thread stating something. I posted disagreeing from my own perspective. I don't particularly care what your opinion on the entire thing is. I just find your points ignorant and riddled with phallacies. I posted in this thread posting my views. They disagreed with the points you brought up and I think I gave some adequate backing on why I disagreed, if not then please feel free to ask for clarification, I don't care if you're bringing up points you don't agree with.. I'm not trying to make you agree.. I'm trying to state my own opinions and I'd prefer to do this without being judged of "labelling" you. Please, dear god in heaven, explain where I did that? I didn't even directly comment to you.. I asked *anyone* who disagreed with me for proof to the contrary to what I've said.



The rest I'm not even going to argue with.

*drops out*

 

[Karma]

i think rampage's (another black man), post about the whole "cultural identity" thing sums it up quite nicely.

the child is 1 year old right now. he has no concept of anything at this point really, there is PLENTY of time for him to discover his "roots" as he grows older. There are PLENTY of people who are born and raised someone and yet their ancestory and heritage lies somewhere else. Madonna isn't hurting him or robbing him of anything...save a hard life of poverty and disease. and SO WHAT if the father is alive? the FATHER wants Madonna and Guy to take his son and give him a better life. He's HAPPY with the couple adopting his son so apparently he knows that they can provide a better life for him than he could ever. AND he has said that Madonna promised him that she would bring David to see him as he grew older. So i imagine that will throw your whole argument about him "not knowing his identity" out of the window.



i think its kind of stupid to even suggest "we shouldnt trust madonna with a child." the woman has two kids of HER OWN already that she has an active and deep involvement in the parenting of. OBVIOUSLY the government there felt that Madonna met the criteria for adopting this child. as Vilandra said..it would be the same for any multi-millionare person/couple looking to adopt the child. they go through the same checks but their OBVIOUS ability to provide for/care for the child makes the descision easier.


you claim to want to "discuss" this issue, but really, you sound like several other people I know personally, who when discussing issues that bring up race...you almost seem to PRETEND to be "okay" but clearly you have some kind of problem and find a way to some how put a negative spin on what Madonna has done and instead of looking at the BIG PICTURE and seeing how this child's life and his chances of success have now improved by 100 %, you want to focus on things that really dont matter.


The boy is still a BABY...there's no need to beat him over the head with "do you know where you came from?"....i'm sure there will be plenty of folks later on in his life (who think like you) that will find a reason for criticizing him for being a young black man that happens to be the adopted son of Madonna.