over the years

Karma

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some characters have lost their luster, zing and appeal. bad writing, bad drawing...or over use have really ruined alot of marvel characters, while in DC it seems that many of their characters (with the exception of Wonder Woman who has been RUINED since 2000) have retained the qualities that have made them enduring , even if the DC house is highly slept on by comic readers.


some prime examples of characters that have been ruined:

Wolverine
Psylocke
Storm
Rogue
Jean Grey
White Queen



any thoughts/comments on THESE particular characters and where you think they went wrong?
 
As an avid and complete Wolverine fan, I could not agree more there. Logan has gone from a warrior unlike anything the world has ever seen to an over-used, under-thinking tank whose primary role is to soak up and shrug off bullet fire, before butchering bad guys.

Once, he had nobility and grace; he was the warrior poet, with the inner tranquility of his Japanese training at war with the beast of his nature, and a heart as open and pure as the wide blue sky.

A skilled fighter trained in many disciplines (Jiu-jitsu, and other Samurai disciplines, Weapon X combat tactical training, X-Men training, to name but a few), and a smooth covert operative with knowledge of many languages (Japanese, Spanish, Russian, German, and others were all demonstrated), his brain processes in combat were described by Forge as "equivalent to an olympic gymnast performing a gold-medal-winning routine whilst simultaneously beating four chess computers in his head", which gives an idea of the physical and mental skill and complexity he can maintain whilst in combat.

In one of the earliest issues of his solo series, at the end of the "Spore" arc, we saw an example of the delicacy of his clawwork, as he gave the Nazi remnant Gheist a clean, close shave, cutting so fine and smoothly all over that Gheist felt nothing, but all of the armour bonded to his skin fell off. To see him go from that skill and delicacy to the wildly swinging brute that he has largely been for years is nothing short of appalling.

To me, at his peak, Logan was the ultimate symbol of the warrior: skilled, he overcame adversity; brave, he overcame fear; intelligent, he overcame challenges; trained, he overcame the baseness of his nature. His was the epitome of transcendence, mastering his rages long before it occurred to Bruce Banner, he stared the beast in the eye, and beat it back with nothing but the strength of his own conviction, and belief in what was right.

To see him become what he has has been a painful experience, but the recent Enemy of the State and Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D arcs in the Wolverine solo series, written by Mark Millar, have gone some way to repairing the damage.
 
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yes we know your an "avid wolverine fan" << eyeroll>> lol :p

ill admit when younger, and getting into comics, wolveine was some how the first character i recognized...i dont know how because prior to 1986 i really hadnt read comics. but he really was much more effective back then than he is now.

i think that the biggest problem has been so many bad writers and artists over the last few years. with marvel inc having gone through so many changes and becoming company more driven by profit than quality product.

the writers and artists of today cant hold a candle to those of the 70's , 80's and even through the 90's. there's no "care" given and no respect for past continuity which is another reason why some of the characters have declined.

and lets not even talk about OVER USAGE....wolverine is every damn where.
 
Hang on, I think it's a bit cavalier to state that "the writers and artists of today cant hold a candle to those of the 70's , 80's and even through the 90's" as if it's a universal truth.

Times have changed, society has moved, and so comics, which are always to an extent the product of the culture that spawns them, are obviously going to be very different in their plots and scripting to ten years ago, never mind thirty.

I can understand if you no longer like writing styles; that's understandable. There were many classic arcs which have achieved iconic status for their respective creative teams. But to say that none of today's writers are as good, well. J. Michael Straczynski, Warren Ellis, Mark Millar, Jeph Loeb, Brian Azzarello, even Brian Michael Bendis (many others, of course, but these are my personal favourites) all write superbly, with energy and dynamism, yet often with a subtlety and skill that isn't immediately obvious, often only noticeable with a second or third reading.

As to artists, John Romita Jr is a finer penciller than his father ever was, Jim Lee's still proving himself to be the best in the world, Gary Frank works perfectly with JMS, Bryan Hitch has established himself as a master of dynamic, kick-ass super-teams (The Authority, The Ultimates), John Cassaday plays a subtle yet rich game, the Kubert brothers are both excellent, Mike Deodato Jr has aquitted himself well with both Hulk and Spider-Man; need I go on?
 
times may have changed but the changes made to the comics in order to i suppose "reflect that" is the problem. people my age and older almost IMMEDIATELY will tell you that the writing and direction of many marvel titles today is just horrible.

its probably a generation thing, as my father felt no attraction or connection to the roster(s) of the x-men i grew up with. he didnt even recognize x-factor as the ORIGINAL founding x-men because thier looks had changed so many times up to that point in the mid 80s.

but i make my statement based on conversations ive had with people that i know that are my age or older..even the woman that owns the comic shop i grew up shopping at has stated flatly that marvel's writers today are "garbage" and the characters are handled poorly. she's 34.
 
See, that's an opinion thing. The writing changes to reflect the times; not because it is forced to, but because that's what works. The Golden Age heroes, with their cheesy dialogue and far less dynamic artwork, whilst classics, produce very little that current readers could connect with or relate to, and so we see none of that style any more.

But to say whether any age is "better" or not is simply a case of opinion, and, mostly, knowing what you like, and liking what you know. After all, the fierceness and energy found in many modern publications is infinitely preferable for me to the softer, less challenging and in-your-face styles of yesteryear.

It's still dependant on skill. I'm not stating categorically that the current age of comics is any better than the previous ones, just that I prefer it on the whole. There are still plenty of examples of current series (PowerPack, for example) over which I would infinitely prefer some of the more classic writing styles.

But my point is that it's impossible to state in such clear terms that "what I grew up with was great, and everything else is crap"; the skill simply comes out in new ways.
 
personally i dont think so. i DO think that most of today's writing in comics, especially Marvel, is NOT worth reading. there are plenty of other things, like television programming, that are constantly changing...and while their are so many classic tv gems of the 70's, 80's, 90's and even a few in the 00's....MANY people age 25 and up tend to agree that programming NOW is not what it used to be...the infestation of reality tv is one GLARING example....YET i can still find SOMETHINGS that i truly enjoy watching.

the x-men's universe has become something so far less appealing than anything i can remember....Bob Harras ws the last one to put that book back on track for me....but after that Neo bullshit....i quit collecting them.

change happens no matter what...but whether or not the teams at marvel choose to REMEMBER their older readers is an entirely different thing all together.
 
Personally, I think part of the problem with writing about characters that have been around for decades is that you're WRITING ABOUT CHARACTERS THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR DECADES.

So many storylines and facets of the character's background and personalities have been explored that even trying to do something new will almost inevitably fall into a rehash in one way, shape or form. I heard a rumor awhile back that Marvel was considering a character whipe, creating an epic series in the vein of the Infinity Gauntlet which would involve the majority of Marvels top heroes in a catastrophic struggle which would result in their deaths.

This, of course, would lead into new characters for the current and future generation of Marvel enthusiasts to love.

I'm sure a lot of people would be pissed but I personally think it's both a bold and brilliant idea.
 
i wouldnt mind a mass evacuation of characters (long established) ....its been done before in other areas...like the "pretty guardian sailor senshi" [you all would know them as sailor moon] which originally ran from 1991 till 1997...in the grand series finale...ALL of sailor guardians died ...heroically in battle. there hasnt been much seen of them sense in the way of returns/revivals which is why they enjoy such cult status now.

if marvel DID in fact wipe the slate clean...then at least the characters would be forever remembered at their best...instead of the MESS that they are now.
 
Maybe as a new, spin-off universe. But I'm just too damn attached to the old characters, and still don't see that a great majority of them are being ruined (some, in my eyes are still great, whilst others, such as Spidey, have never been better) enough to warrant that kind of drastic action.
 
I have to say that I am pretty bored with whats going on in the mainstream marvel and DC universe. I think alot of the stories that they have done in the past have been really good but they are running out of ideas. Take for example superman, he has does more things than anyone else in any universe with maybe the exception of wolverine so its hard to write the man of steel. To the point where with Infinite Crisis they had to kill of the originial man of steel who was aged and superboy the original who was from a different time. Personally I think that the whole original Marvel universe needs to have a real big event that can revamp it. I like what they are doing with the ultimates currently but its a different time for the heros which gives them different personalities, making them different characters. I do like what DC universe is doing, going out of their way to change the way everything works with the new Crisis thats going on. But marvel seems to me to be creating more of a headache for itself than need be. This whole house of M thing is really throwing off the timeline of marvel as I see it since they are still releasing regular marvel books at the same time that dont tie into HoM. Personally I guess I am just not caring for mainstream marvels writting right now. Bringing back the same villians like 5000000 times and the same heros seen over and over and over and over again.

MARVEL WE NEED SOMETHING NEW
 
Well I'm new here so I'm going to have to drag this bad boy back up to the top of the forum.

While I agree that some of the writing has been pretty bad, so was PLENTY of the old stuff. Clone Saga anyone? Attack of the infinate symbiotes?

As far as art I disagree 100%. I'd take art produced from 2000+ over just about anything that was on sale before hand. Some of the old hands are only getting better, Jim Lee, and a ton of new guys are blowing the doors off.
 
Spellbinder said:
some prime examples of characters that have been ruined:

Wolverine
Psylocke
Storm
Rogue
Jean Grey
White Queen



any thoughts/comments on THESE particular characters and where you think they went wrong?

Wolverine is EVERYWHERE...and there, I have gone and stated the obvious. *rolls eyes* I can't believe it. How can one character be SO popular that he shows up in NEARLY EVERY freaking comic book made by Marvel? I don't even like him that much anymore...I'd hate him if he wasn't so close with my third favorite character, Jubilee. And now there's talk of a Wolverine spin-off...I'm going to hurl. I don't see what's wrong with Psylocke or Emma...I personally think that they've always been great characters...though I like evil Emma better. Rogue was ruined by the movies...and her constant mood swings and problems with Gambit. What the hell is THAT all about? It's time for me to state the obvious once more: JEAN GREY NEEDS TO CHOOSE LIFE OR DEATH! SO F**KING WHAT IF SHE'S THE PHOENIX I WANT HER TO STOP BEING SO DAMN ANNOYING!
 
Sino's definitely on the money with the point about artists; Jim Lee has gone from strength to strength, Silvestri is still on the up-and-up, there are dozens of young guns like Gary Frank and David Finch who are already pretty damn good, and who clearly have still more room for improvement.

Then, of course, there is just the colouring and printing possibilities - with the advent of newer versions of Adobe Photoshop, tricks of light, etc, are possible today that could not have been dreamed of before within comics; the best example of this is perhaps the Infinite Crisis 6 cover by Jim Lee, coloured by Alex Sinclair. I defy anyone to say that this level of colouring excellence would have been possible even 5 years ago:
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Character ruined over the years; Wolverine, Rogue, Batman, Superman, Magneto, Apocalypse, Green Lantern (all of them), Darkseid, Doom, Juggernaut, Sabertooth.

The bad guys have been overused and defeated with too much ease for anyone in their right mind to ever be afraid of them. Magneto has had mor edamage done to him in 5 years than anyone all badguys combined in 10 years. He's joke, how does this guy get followers when his defeat getting clowned record is larger than the national debt. Apocalypse is starting catch up with him. It like all the writers currently only know about those 2 for bad guys and just trade off when to use them. Or they go powercreep and create new single shot badguy who's supposed be even badder; like in the 90s when a whole crop of mutant badasses started popping up overnight and they were all pitted against Wolvie just to prove how uber they were.

Wolverine is in more places than Kilroy. Rogue is made joke of, dump Gambit and move the F on already, oh and get you Ms. Marvel powers back. God I miss the days when there was only Uncanny and Claremont was at the helm. Batman being ruined by fanboy input, just like Wolvie, I'm waiting for a Batman vs God thread when someone states with planning Bats could drop the Almighty himself. Superman OK already Pre-Crisis strength or something something more 'realistic', seriously as powerful as he's becoming lately he should be God. Sabertooth is supposed to be as dangerous as they come yet everyone I do mean everyone, Aunt May included has kicked his ass....

Sorry I'm ranting it just a lot of comic nowaways are just starting to piss me the F off. I did pick up the first 2 issues of the Squadron Supreme though so my quality fix is being handled for the time being.
 
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