The Cartoon Wars

[Osiris]

Oh I'm sorry dude, I don't think I slept with you last nite. Anyway you are muslim right? The arab world makes up 85% of muslim or more right? I think my question is relevant to this topic. So...........why does the AAArab world hate the U.S. so much?

Yes I am Muslim, and No Arabs are actually the minority of the Muslim population. The Majority of Muslims are in Asia, Africa, Europe, etc. Muslims in the Middle East are, Persian, Pakastani, etc. Arabs are a very small minority.

Not to mention the millions of Muslims in North America.

 

[Rampage]

I will say this about Islam. The biggest problem that I have in terms of the difficulties with Islam versus the Western world is the inability of Muslims as a whole to condemn terrorism completely and define ways in which Islam and the rest of the world can peacefully co-exist. After 9-11, the condemnation of those attacks was quite muted in many Muslim countries. There are many terrorost attacks worldwide that are in the name of Islam, yet there is little condemnation of these attacks and real action by Muslims to stop the wave of violence. This is the biggest part of the argument, the 800-pound gorilla in the corner in the issue of Islam vs. The West. Until Muslims can make concrete strides to wrest their religion and collective reputations away from their violent minority then it is hard to see how there will be anything but war in the future.

 

[Osiris]

I will say this about Islam. The biggest problem that I have in terms of the difficulties with Islam versus the Western world is the inability of Muslims as a whole to condemn terrorism completely and define ways in which Islam and the rest of the world can peacefully co-exist. After 9-11, the condemnation of those attacks was quite muted in many Muslim countries. There are many terrorost attacks worldwide that are in the name of Islam, yet there is little condemnation of these attacks and real action by Muslims to stop the wave of violence. This is the biggest part of the argument, the 800-pound gorilla in the corner in the issue of Islam vs. The West. Until Muslims can make concrete strides to wrest their religion and collective reputations away from their violent minority then it is hard to see how there will be anything but war in the future.

The biggest problem with this mentallity is that people somehow feel that Muslims should "apologize" for the actions of other Muslims. That is irrational and helps widen the divide. Thats like asking all Christians, Jews, Atheists, etc... to apologize for the actions of those in their respective groups that do things in their name. Or should I as a black man apologize for crimes commited by other blacks or should white people have to apologize etc... I mean what were we supposed to do? What do people expect all 1.5 billion of us sign some form to prove that which the world has known for the last 1400+yrs? I mean come on, if people are that blind that they would rely on the media to define an entire culture, people, or religion by the actions of a few whos fault is that? The truth of the matter is that the history and numbers speak for themselves. If Islam was as bad as they say it is, how could it have co-existed in America since it has been here since its creation, Asia, Africa, Europe, and all these other places for hundreds of years?

The biggest problem is that Americans in general tend to be very ignorant of history, and are easily blinded by propraganda.

I ask again, who's fault is that?

 

[Rampage]

That is the problem with far too many Muslims. They feel that they have no responsibility in terms of what is happening with radicalIslam. I hate to break this to you but you do. This is not about day-to-day apologies but about a clear show by world Muslim leaders that this type of behavior is unnacceptable. Far too many leaders are saying the opposite, and the ones who do not agree with them are far too quiet. I do not say this due to ignorance. I say this as a man who has eaten and celebrated and worshipped with Muslims and is begging for a great religion to wrest itself from the nutjobs. To dismiss me as a know-nothing American who doesn't care about Islam is a mistake. And if I am not finding what I am looking for, even when I am looking VERY hard, then what the hell do you think the rest of the world that may actually not give a damn bout you is seeing? Wake up, Muslims of the world!!! The imagined war that you believe the West is waging on you will be nothing compared to what could happen to all of us if steps are not made to deal with radical Islamist terrorism by everyone, including non-radical Muslims.
To me that woud be the real tragedy.

 

[Osiris]

That is the problem with far too many Muslims. They feel that they have no responsibility in terms of what is happening with radicalIslam. I hate to break this to you but you do. This is not about day-to-day apologies but about a clear show by world Muslim leaders that this type of behavior is unnacceptable. Far too many leaders are saying the opposite, and the ones who do not agree with them are far too quiet. I do not say this due to ignorance. I say this as a man who has eaten and celebrated and worshipped with Muslims and is begging for a great religion to wrest itself from the nutjobs. To dismiss me as a know-nothing American who doesn't care about Islam is a mistake. And if I am not finding what I am looking for, even when I am looking VERY hard, then what the hell do you think the rest of the world that may actually not give a damn bout you is seeing? Wake up, Muslims of the world!!! The imagined war that you believe the West is waging on you will be nothing compared to what could happen to all of us if steps are not made to deal with radical Islamist terrorism by everyone, including non-radical Muslims.
To me that woud be the real tragedy.

OK, I guess you missed the point....What do you expect 1.2 billion people to do? Many a scholar, organization, etc... have publicly condemned terrorism, its all over the websites, its been in print, and sometimes even on TV. A handful of "radicals" are doing bad things and calling it Islam, do you know who they are? I surely don't, but if you find out let me know, so I can call them and tell them I disprove...

Once again what do you want from us? Im an American born descendant of slaves who has honorably served my country in the USMC and still serving the Government, what am I supposed to do to make people understand that Muslims are against terrorism, which by the way is in the eye of the beholder?

And please don't give me that "I understand because I have 2 Muslim friends" story again, it sounds like people who say "Im not racist I have 2 black friends"....

 

[Nerull]

And please don't give me that "I understand because I have 2 Muslim friends" story again, it sounds like people who say "Im not racist I have 2 black friends"....

So if we aren't a muslim we can't take aprt, in your eyes, in this debate ?? And you say Rampage misses the point.

 

[Osiris]

So if we aren't a muslim we can't take aprt, in your eyes, in this debate ?? And you say Rampage misses the point.

How did you go to that extreme? The point that I was trying to make which is obviously mute, is that how can one expect Muslims to be held accountable for other Muslims on the other side of the world is some cases? That would be as ignorant as me saying that all white people need to do something about the KKK.

 

[Nerull]

That would be as ignorant as me saying that all white people need to do something about the KKK.

And you don't think some of us do ? I have, on many occassions demonstrated AGAINST such groups in the UK (National Front, BNP etc.) and also promoted an integrationalist agenda on line to get OVER such petty disputes about who's side is more right. How have you demonstrated that not all white/muslim people are the same ??? :censored:

 

[Osiris]

And you don't think some of us do ? I have, on many occassions demonstrated AGAINST such groups in the UK (National Front, BNP etc.) and also promoted an integrationalist agenda on line to get OVER such petty disputes about who's side is more right. How have you demonstrated that not all white/muslim people are the same ??? :censored:

You made my point for me. Many Muslims including myself have signed petitions, issued Fatwas, talked at conferences, been in the media, etc. condemning "terrorism" "radicalism" etc. Yet, its still not enough, what do people want from us. Hell, go to the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) website: http://www.cair-net.org/ and you will see volumes of the political activism thats been going on for years that show our community is against whats happening, but because we don't get air time, people assume we are silent, and we need to do something!:censored:

 

[Nerull]

is that how can one expect Muslims to be held accountable for other Muslims on the other side of the world is some cases?

what am I supposed to do to make people understand that Muslims are against terrorism, which by the way is in the eye of the beholder

And you can't see the logic from the other side ? it's almost the same as saying all white people are anti-muslim because they DON'T have a strong opinion either way. Again sorry about the sides thing everyone BUT:

why do we never see white people burning Pakistani flags or the like ? Is it because we know as a civilisation (and that's derived in the UK from hundred's of other countries) that such extremism is wrong ? From what we're led to believe it seems as though such militant's are giving the reign to do this in their country yet I know if such extremism were displayed in the UK the perpetrators would be "taken away".

 

[Osiris]

And you can't see the logic from the other side ? it's almost the same as saying all white people are anti-muslim because they DON'T have a strong opinion either way. Again sorry about the sides thing everyone BUT:

why do we never see white people burning Pakistani flags or the like ? Is it because we know as a civilisation (and that's derived in the UK from hundred's of other countries) that such extremism is wrong ? From what we're led to believe it seems as though such militant's are giving the reign to do this in their country yet I know if such extremism were displayed in the UK the perpetrators would be "taken away".

So are you

A: calling people in the UK civilized? Compared to what standard?

B: If citizens of the UK are civilized according to this standard, what does that make other people who do the opposite?

Civilization does not rest on the law of governments. Whats legal in one country doesnt make it better than another where it is illegal or vice versa.

One not being able to protest by burning flags in the UK doesnt make citizens of the UK "superior" to those who are able to protest by burning flags in another country.

Your beginning to expose yourself....

"Extremism" is a broad term, like "terrorism" that is often associated with the ideas of the one using such terms.

I think your being extreme by thinking you or your countrymen/women are "civilized" vs the Muslim savages. But then again historically anything that isnt British is savage, like my anscestors that were brought to America in chains, many of whom were also Muslim, imagine that!

 

[Karma]

But then again historically anything that isnt British is savage, like my anscestors that were brought to America in chains, many of whom were also Muslim, imagine that!

i sense a "chip on the shoulder" syndrome here..i could be wrong though. as if other "people" or even GENDERS havent been victimized by/in America over the centuries?

and another thing,

I think your being extreme by thinking you or your countrymen/women are "civilized" vs the Muslim savages.

isnt that how a vast majority of muslims world wide view "western society"...particular Americans? that we are all "fat, lazy infidels with no morals or anything else". why is it that many muslims seem to feel like they are pure and set apart from the rest of the savages? is it any wonder the same feeling is returned toward muslims by OTHER people?

 

[Osiris]

i sense a "chip on the shoulder" syndrome here..i could be wrong though. as if other "people" or even GENDERS havent been victimized by/in America over the centuries?

and another thing,



isnt that how a vast majority of muslims world wide view "western society"...particular Americans? that we are all "fat, lazy infidels with no morals or anything else". why is it that many muslims seem to feel like they are pure and set apart from the rest of the savages? is it any wonder the same feeling is returned toward muslims by OTHER people?

Well you are wrong about the "chip on the shoulder" comment, I was pointing out how stereotypical he/she is acting.

As far as point #2, thats the big problem here. We are using a broad stroke to color a group of people by using the terms like "vast majority" "most" etc. Im pointing out the contradiction of those statements, because the majority of Muslims live in the West and in Asia, so wouldnt I look a little stupid feeling the way about Americans the same way the "vast majority" of Muslims do, considering I am an American and one who serves the US Govt?

 

[Nerull]

A: calling people in the UK civilized? Compared to what standard?

B: If citizens of the UK are civilized according to this standard, what does that make other people who do the opposite?

A: Is it because we know as a civilisation (and that's derived in the UK from hundred's of other countries) that such extremism is wrong ? After all the UK may not have the best past when it comes to racism/segregation (and this shouldn't be an issue (sins of the father etc.)) but compared to coutries where you get abducted merely for the place of your birth and put on show as an example of the "corrupt western world". Add to that the freedom of expression that we have in the western world compared again to virtually dictorial coutries who stifle free speech.

B: People who do the opposite of this i.e. kidnap/restrict personal freedom etc. OF ANY COLOURED SKIN can't justify kidnapping or killing anyone else purely on the basis of "he's the same kin as my oppressor therefore he is the same as them exactly" is the worst kind of prejudice and does nothing for either side. (If anything it may tempt more people to go against you rather than join up).

 

[Osiris]

A: Is it because we know as a civilisation (and that's derived in the UK from hundred's of other countries) that such extremism is wrong ? After all the UK may not have the best past when it comes to racism/segregation (and this shouldn't be an issue (sins of the father etc.)) but compared to coutries where you get abducted merely for the place of your birth and put on show as an example of the "corrupt western world". Add to that the freedom of expression that we have in the western world compared again to virtually dictorial coutries who stifle free speech.

B: People who do the opposite of this i.e. kidnap/restrict personal freedom etc. OF ANY COLOURED SKIN can't justify kidnapping or killing anyone else purely on the basis of "he's the same kin as my oppressor therefore he is the same as them exactly" is the worst kind of prejudice and does nothing for either side. (If anything it may tempt more people to go against you rather than join up).

Because you or others feel that things and/or actions are "extreme" does that actually make them so?

I believe the actions that produce the effects that you label as "extreme" are the true extreme.

I wonder why people are always so quick to condemn the reflection, but are slow to even acknowledge the mirror. If you don't like the reflection, break or change the mirror, or better yet get rid of the one or those standing in the mirror.

 

[Nerull]

I wonder why people are always so quick to condemn the reflection, but are slow to even acknowledge the mirror. If you don't like the reflection, break or change the mirror, or better yet get rid of the one or those standing in the mirror.

And the amount of times you play a record doesn't change it's lyrics.

IF you've been properly following this you would know that I have tried to inform you that every white person isn't the same as the eejits in the white house but YOU continue to insist that I am some form of KKK loving white supremicist when you fail to realize you are a hypocrit.

Oh and incidentally in a nationality obsessed world burning a flag is the most obvious way, to me, of saying I hate this country and everyone in it.

 

[Osiris]

And the amount of times you play a record doesn't change it's lyrics.

IF you've been properly following this you would know that I have tried to inform you that every white person isn't the same as the eejits in the white house but YOU continue to insist that I am some form of KKK loving white supremicist when you fail to realize you are a hypocrit.

Oh and incidentally in a nationality obsessed world burning a flag is the most obvious way, to me, of saying I hate this country and everyone in it.

What's wrong with you? I never called you a racist. I don't know anything about you. Try again....

What does flag burning have to do with the assumptions your trying to make when talking about who's civilized and who's not? According to most, at least as I was trained in the Military who frowns upon such things, flag burning is meant as a political statement, not necessarily a statement of ones civility or not...

 

[Nerull]

as I was trained in the Military who frowns upon such things, flag burning is meant as a political statement, not necessarily a statement of ones civility or not...

This from the US military who destroy most of a countries historical monuments etc...

Oh and just to re-iterate:

Oh and incidentally in a nationality obsessed world burning a flag is the most obvious way, to me, of saying I hate this country and everyone in it.

 

[Osiris]

This from the US military who destroy most of a countries historical monuments etc...

Oh and just to re-iterate:

What does this have to do with the original proclaimation directly and indirectly that:

Western Society: Civil
Muslim Society: Un-civilized

 

[Nerull]

Mate you must be blind. I have not said that the West is more "civilised" than the Muslim world. All I stated was that as a civilisation i.e. a group of people who live together in civil unity. The UK has almost managed to do this apart from certain factions war-mongering which is lobbied against heavily by various UK peoples as well as us tolerating muslim clerics who come over and preach their hate towards the west. I can imagine the uproar that would happen if a Christian leader were to preach like Abu Hamza.