The "Gay agenda"

[Clara Oswald]

ZorCrow, I hope you've never had sex with a woman who wasn't your wife.

 

[DonDaddyD]

Okay the thing about Race and being gay IS connected because as defined by the dictionary, being Gay is a race, just like the race of the JEWS! There is no country called Gayonia or Jewtown but here is the definition or RACE plain and simple!
race[SIZE=-1]1[/SIZE] ([FONT=verdana, sans-serif] P [/FONT]) Pronunciation Key (r

s)
n.

1. A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
3. A genealogical line; a lineage.
4. Humans considered as a group.
5. Biology.
   1. An interbreeding, usually geographically isolated population of organisms differing from other populations of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits. A race that has been given formal taxonomic recognition is known as a subspecies.
   2. A breed or strain, as of domestic animals.

Last time I checked Gay people are united on a common history.. People need to be EDUCATION on Gay History before they open their mouths about it.

There is a "Jewtown" it's known as Isreal. The Israealites in the biblical sense are the decendants of Jacob; a Jew. This long history of the people led to the country being formed in 1948 (admittingly there is more too it than that.)

Though the Jewish people are bound more with religion than genetics. And in that sense I wouldn't classify Jew's as a race I would identify a person of the Jewish faith; Judaism as a person who practices that religion. I am a black man, that is (however you wish to define the origin of it) my race I can then follow a Jewish religion. The people who live in Israel who may follow Judaism are commonly known as Israelies in my Country and not simply Jews.

But there in lays my point. It isn't just deep history that binds a race nor is it just there geographical placing. Deep genetics root people too a race. If I had a child with another black person he won't be born (genetically) white, asian or what have you - without serious questions being asked of the mother.

In short a gay person will not genetically give birth too a gay baby. There are no identifiable hereditary genes that are passed on from one gay person too his or her offspring that could identify the child as 'gay' biologically. And in that sense I do not consider gay a race.

I am sorry too be stressing the point but I'm pushing it so that I can further understand why being gay; could be considered a race. Because everything I know is telling me that it is't a race it is a sexuality. And yes within that sexuality as well as anyother there is the possibility of more than just sex, jealousy et al much like hetrosexuality. However my being hetrosexual is just my sexuality and is a word used to define my preferred choice of gender. Being human and having emotion allows me to love.

Edit:~ I just saw the bit about the German race and thought on it more if my family lived in Germany; a black man. Would I be of the German race. I would say no in the same way that I am not of the English race. If you added another 250yrs too my family living in Germany and they were still black. I would still argue that they weren't of the German rave.

I don't see the definition in the quote above (which is the one that I am using to base my answer on) as 4 seperate points but each adding too the next. And one cannot overlook the genetic implications that define a race.

Also if anyone is wondering I find that identifying being Gay as a race very much a part of the Gay agenda; the quest for equal rights for gays. However I haven't thought of such a thing (defining gay as a race) a positive thing overall or an objectivly negative thing.

 

[Foxfire]

But what really is race other then another label? Women are labeled women, why? Is it their reproductive organs, the genetics, or a chromosome? Why are black folks labeled 'African American?' Is it their skin color or the ancestor of coming from Africa? I'm just trying to understand why Homosexual can't considered to be a race besides a sexual orientation.

In my opinion, gay people are a race, but that's just how I feel. In the end I don't care what anyone says about my sexuality or who I love. When I think of Jewish people I think of thick beards, pretty religious, and huge noses. Now, that's not being stereotypical I want to make that clear, its just what I see.

I feel if we're labeling men, women, blacks, Jews, etc., gay people should be considered as well. Take women besides their body what are they mostly known for? Shopping, working, cleaning, mothers, lovers, delicate, etc. Again that's what I feel but that's what some people think of as women. The same can be considered of gay people besides a sexuality. Gay people have excellent taste in style, clean freaks, shopping, passionate, free spirited, etc. Now those characteristic can be blended with African Americans, Jews, etc. My point being if these other races can do it, gays should have it too.

 

[Clara Oswald]

Women are not a race either...

But what I would say keeps being gay from being a race is that if you are gay, and you have children, they will not necessarily be gay. But race is passed on from the parent to the child.

 

[DonDaddyD]

But what really is race other then another label? Women are labeled women, why? Is it their reproductive organs, the genetics, or a chromosome? Why are black folks labeled 'African American?' Is it their skin color or the ancestor of coming from Africa? I'm just trying to understand why Homosexual can't considered to be a race besides a sexual orientation.

Race is exactly that, a label a way of identifying and defining a group. Women are labelled women because in the end it comes down to a person having an XX chromosone where as Men or Males of the species have an XY chromosone - nothing else defines that fact as clearly and such identifications usually comes down to it being that simple. I do not know why Black Americans choose to define themselves as African-American other than to symbolise their heritage and remove the connatations of black (seeing the associations of the word in the dictionary - that has been watered down over the years).

I'm not trying to take away the importance of your being Gay and there is most certainly a Gay culture and identity that goes further than merely sexuality but that cannot support the argument that being Gay makes a person a part of a race. And from that acknowledgement I can understand the need for rights and equality, in the end homosexuals are people too.

However there is no hetrosexual race and in the argument of equality IF Gay's are considered a race surely hetrosexuals are one too?

When I think of Jewish people I think of thick beards, pretty religious, and huge noses. Now, that's not being stereotypical I want to make that clear, its just what I see.

But in the end isn't that the stereotype? How did that image come to your mind? It is an image enforced on society so that we identify a group of people by a common image. The image doesn't have to be accurate or true.

I feel if we're labeling men, women, blacks, Jews, etc., gay people should be considered as well. Take women besides their body what are they mostly known for? Shopping, working, cleaning, mothers, lovers, delicate, etc. Again that's what I feel but that's what some people think of as women. The same can be considered of gay people besides a sexuality.

I'm not getting you are you saying that Gay's should be stereotyped and type casted by there practices? Isn't that what the fight for equal rights is trying to disassociate from. To show that being gay isn't bound by years of negative imagery and that homosexuals can expand further than what is associated with them.

Gay people have excellent taste in style, clean freaks, shopping, passionate, free spirited, etc. Now those characteristic can be blended with African Americans, Jews, etc. My point being if these other races can do it, gays should have it too.

But that is just practices not what defines each afore mention persons into a group. All those type of people can quite easily be the opposite and still adhere to their 'type' of identification.

I mean being stylish, shopping practices etc is just common practices of anyone living in the western world... surely that isn't enough to identify a group of people from another.

What being gay or homosexual fundamentally is, is to prefer people of the same sex that is what defines a person as gay, everything else is secondary and in the end that comes down to a sexual preference (established whenever). That is ultimately a case of sexuality nothing more.

 

[Foxfire]

Women are not a race either...

But what I would say keeps being gay from being a race is that if you are gay, and you have children, they will not necessarily be gay. But race is passed on from the parent to the child.

If race passes on from parent to child, then why when heterosexual couples have a child(ren) are they sometimes gay? Even if gay people have a child or children whose to say they won't be straight or gay? :angel:

I'm not trying to take away the importance of your being Gay and there is most certainly a Gay culture and identity that goes further than merely sexuality but that cannot support the argument that being Gay makes a person a part of a race. And from that acknowledgement I can understand the need for rights and equality, in the end homosexuals are people too.

I know your not DDD, I was just commenting how frustrating it is sometimes. I respect what your saying and Vil too, I may not agree with some of it but that's what makes the world go around. :raspberry :angel: In the end I just want the same rights as everyone else, so we agree there by your statement about understanding.

However there is no hetrosexual race and in the argument of equality IF Gay's are considered a race surely hetrosexuals are one too?

True, there's no such a thing. But why can't we have one? And yes, heterosexuals would be a race too. At least in my opinion.

But in the end isn't that the stereotype? How did that image come to your mind? It is an image enforced on society so that we identify a group of people by a common image. The image doesn't have to be accurate or true.

I guess in the end it is a sterotype. The image came into my mind by seeing other jewish people. I never thought about it like that, good point.

I'm not getting you are you saying that Gay's should be stereotyped and type casted by there practices? Isn't that what the fight for equal rights is trying to disassociate from. To show that being gay isn't bound by years of negative imagery and that homosexuals can expand further than what is associated with them.

Yes and no, I was attempting to give a few positive details of gays who are similar to other races. My point was to say gays are just like other people such a habits, some culture, etc.

 

[Black Widow]

Here's how I feel:

Regardless of whether you want to call them a race, an orientation, a cult, or a gaggle of purple people eaters, homosexuals are most CERTAINLY human beings, and in AMERICA [because that is the nation we are referring to as far as the marriage debate and so forth], they should be afforded the same rights and priveledges as every other american, and that INCLUDES getting married and being regarded with the equality we allow the rest of the american population.

 

[Mat]

I think comparing homosexuality and the trials and tribulations that homosexuals have had to cope with throughout human history is unfair comparing to other races in the sense that homosexuals can actually hide who they are, whereas the Jews and in particular the African-Americans cannot.

And yeah, I agree with Lexi - homosexuals have every right to be just as miserable as the rest of us, which means they should be able to get married.

 

[Clara Oswald]

If race passes on from parent to child, then why when heterosexual couples have a child(ren) are they sometimes gay? Even if gay people have a child or children whose to say they won't be straight or gay? :angel:

That's the point. Being heterosexual isn't a race either.

I think comparing homosexuality and the trials and tribulations that homosexuals have had to cope with throughout human history is unfair comparing to other races in the sense that homosexuals can actually hide who they are, whereas the Jews and in particular the African-Americans cannot.

And yeah, I agree with Lexi - homosexuals have every right to be just as miserable as the rest of us, which means they should be able to get married.

They can get married, just not to someone of the same sex

 

[Mat]

Yep, that's what I think, too.

*grins*
Have I ever told you that you're just infuriating? In a good way, mind you. But infuriating nonetheless?

 

[Black Widow]

I think comparing homosexuality and the trials and tribulations that homosexuals have had to cope with throughout human history is unfair comparing to other races in the sense that homosexuals can actually hide who they are, whereas the Jews and in particular the African-Americans cannot.

That, they can... the thing is... they should not HAVE to, nor should they want to.

And in a perfect world, that would be the case... homosexuals could be homosexual and blacks could be black and jews and whites and so forth and nobody would fuck with anyone else just because their skin color is different or their sexual orientation differs from what is considered normal... and while i REALIZE this isnt a perfect world.... that DOESNT MEAN we cant make this unperfect world a little closer to perfect, it doesnt mean we cant try to make this life closer to being a fair.

We cant control famine or disease or pain and MOST of us cant control war... but what we CAN control is how we treat each other-- and though i know i cant avoid being preachy when i say this-- how WE would want to be treated... and if I were gay, I would want to be treated like every other taxpaying american citizen....

so before you judge people or criticize them, and ESPECIALLY before you condemn them, just know: that COULD be you, fighting for YOUR right to legally marry the love of your life and enjoy the benefits that come with it.

 

[Rampage]

I think the only thing that bothers me is when homosexuals fight for their rights, I understand and support that. But I think it is one hell of a stretch to try to compare that to the trials of racial injustice. Jews lost 6 million people in a less that seven-year span while Africans in the middle passage lost untold numbers, estimated to be between 10 and 30 million souls on the PASSAGE alone to this part of the world. Untold additional millions died as a direct result of slavery and its aftermath in Reconstruction and Jim Crow. As an African-American, I can be hated ON SIGHT ALONE. If I were Gay, one would have to talk to me to hate me if they hated gays. I'm not saying that homosexuals shouldn't fight for their rights or have rights, but while you guys are upset over whether or not you can marry and share insurance, I as a Black man in this country worry about the possible non-renewal of the Voting Rights Act, without which even more minorities would be disenfranchised out of their voting rights than there are currently, which in an average Presidential election is estimated to be in the tens of thousands, more than enough to overturn the last TWO elections.
I am concerned that some may not appreciate what I am saying, but I am simply asking that you understand the relative gravity of what is being discussed here. The ability to marry and not be ridiculed is not equal to the right to live, escape systematic persecution and have a fighting chance to raise and educate your children in peace in this country.

 

[Black Widow]

I am concerned that some may not appreciate what I am saying, but I am simply asking that you understand the relative gravity of what is being discussed here. The ability to marry and not be ridiculed is not equal to the right to live, escape systematic persecution and have a fighting chance to raise and educate your children in peace in this country.

I DO see what you are saying, and i understand... but what YOU are suggesting by your last statements is that gays dont have to face what you face... but they DO. they are as much a victim of hate crime and persecution and discrimination as you are. they ALSO have to worry about those things you mentioned, and to try to pretend they dont is naive. I am not sayig being gay is the same as being black, and if thats what it SEEMS im saying then perhaps im not making myself as clear as i thought i was....

this particular discussion may have at one point been strictly about the marriage thing... but NO ONE here should be under the impression that that is the ONLY thing we were talking about when we say 'rights and priviledges'.

 

[Foxfire]

I DO see what you are saying, and i understand... but what YOU are suggesting by your last statements is that gays dont have to face what you face... but they DO. they are as much a victim of hate crime and persecution and discrimination as you are. they ALSO have to worry about those things you mentioned, and to try to pretend they dont is naive. I am not sayig being gay is the same as being black, and if thats what it SEEMS im saying then perhaps im not making myself as clear as i thought i was....

this particular discussion may have at one point been strictly about the marriage thing... but NO ONE here should be under the impression that that is the ONLY thing we were talking about when we say 'rights and priviledges'.

Ditto. I agree with this completely. :angel: I would also like to say that some gay people are prime targets just by appearance alone. You do have some "queens" who are completely obvious in their sexuality. And because of that they don't stand a fighting chance and most of the time suffer gay bashing. Some of us can hide our sexuality well but others cannot.

 

[Prophet]

I just don't get why people have to be so defensive about.. No being black is not the same as being gay AT ALL when it clearly is.. Okay, if you aren't gay, then you can't tell me what I DO or DO NOT face at all.. If I express my true sexuality to anyone who ISN'T gay don't think I get the looks.. Being Gay is WHO I AM.. it's in the way I talk, the way I go about my daily life, the music I like, the people I don't, the clothes I wear and the skin that I walk around in everyday..

Anybody who has EVER met me has told me they knew I was gay but didn't say anything.. if you think I don't go into stores or just talk in general and get looks or see people laughing because they think it is funny that I am gay and choose to insult my intelligence? Do you not think I know people who have been judged and kept out of and fired from jobs because they were openly gay or gotten talked to by supervisors who told them they shouldn't be so gay in front of customers?

You have NO clue of the struggle that I go through everyday and to be honest I have no clue of the struggle that any other MINORITIES go through, but I know in the end, our struggle is INEVITABLY the same, we fight to be who we are and be comfortable being who we are...

I don't think this is the so called Gay Agenda because we are really just looking out for the rights of people! There are Asian people who undergo surgery to make their eyes look more like white people, there are black people who bleach their skin, there is body dysmorphia, foot binding, neck elongation, pain and SUFFERING and people are just so concerned with keeping gay people from getting married. We need to take a long look in the mirror and fix the more IMPORTANT problems our country is facing..

I feel so bad about the impoverished Iraqi people and the dead american soldiers, but I also equally hurt anytime someone is called.. a fag, a dyke, a nigger, a spick, a cunt, a chink, and so on and so forthe!

You can throw science and logic at me all you want but my sexuality isn't about that! It is something I have always known and felt to be true, and couldn't change if I wanted to.. If you call me fat, ugly, stupid, dumb, etc. that's okay because I can defend that, but if you call me gay, that HURTS because that is something that is the most basic part of me, it's something I can't change, and if the country doesn't legalize gay marriage then the United States is sending me a message that it ISN'T okay to be me which is NOT the country I thought I grew up in...

 

[Mat]

Anybody else think we're almost arguing for the sake of argument at this point? Not because no ones minds are being changed, but because we're arguing other peoples logic of being for gay rights, rather than their position.

So far the only person who has posted they're against gay marriage was Zorcrow (who has been absent for the majority of the conversation). Now we have pretty much everyone who is for gay marriage and gay rights arguing with one another over similarities or lack thereof between the plights of homosexuals and african americans, jews, and so on. It just seems silly to me.

I think the biggest problem that was run into is that by saying being gay is just like being black, is that you compare one groups struggles to that of the other like they are exactly the same when they most clearly aren't. Their goals are the same, as is the simple rationale that everyone in this country deserves equal treatment. But saying homosexuals were brought to america against their will, made into slaves, and in many cases raped/beaten/lynched because of their social position isn't. Every "minority" (I personally hate that term but whatever) has their own identity and their own struggle that they have had to or are currently dealing with.

This thread makes me think of the meetings I've seen on C-Span with Farrakhan and his muslim entourage talking about black rights. They always seem to have a member of the Native American congregation there, and talk about them for all of thirty seconds claiming to be "brothers" before launching into rhetoric. But their struggles are different, even if they do claim to stand united. The Native Americans were here first. They had their population decimated by European diseases and have a culture they are in danger of seeing vanish. But does Farrakhan give a shit about State and Federal law infringing upon tribal reservation law? Is he concerned about how much money goes to kids who are 50%, 25%, and 12.5% native for college? Does he care that a good portion of the Native American population suffers from alcoholism or just takes their welfare checks with no hope of a better life off or on the reservation? NO.

Your struggle is different and that's why I personally have a problem with you saying

"No being black is not the same as being gay AT ALL when it clearly is."

It is, but it isn't. You're comparing apples to oranges. Are your situations similar? Yes, in many ways. But they are not and never will be the same.

And look at that. Despite thinking it silly to be arguing anymore, here I went ahead and did. Let's see how long this thread ends-up lasting at this rate. <shakes his head>

 

[DonDaddyD]

Fantastically Delievered Mat.....

Erm is adoption a part of the gay agenda because I DO have an issue with that. In all this quest of equal rights that gay's should have I think it wrong to have a gay couple adopt a child.

Being granted that right would (dare I say) arguably be equality over nature....

 

[Foxfire]

I see your point Mat & DDD, and we all have been passionately arguing. I say bring on the drinks! lol. :raspberry :angel:


In the end I'm going to agree with Brandon because like him I'm gay. And in the end some of us will agree while others disagree. Both sides did an excellent job at arguing their side.

Personally lol I'm tired. :whistle: This was a heated debate, as usual.