'Tookie' and the Death Penalty

[DonDaddyD]

Stanley Tookie Williams founded one of America's most notorious gangs; charged with murder and sentenced to death Williams has noticably reformed from the path of his youth and written several books including a series aimed towards children warning them from a life affiliated with gangs.

The crowning acheivement and proof of his redemption is that he has been nominated (more than once) for the Nobel piece prize for peace and literature.

Whether Williams did or didn't kill those four people he has clearly shown that he has come to the realisation that what he stood for was wrong. So should he be sentenced to death?

Do you guys agree with the death penalty and why?

I thought I could easily say "yes if you take a life" but there is always a grey area of 'did they do it?' And in regards to what I've highlighted above even if he (Williams) did do it, he has achieved so much more due to the effects of prison; most notably six years of solitary confinement where he could reflect and search himself introspectively. I question whether it is right to kill him now especially after all that he has achieved against the horror he once stood for. Clearly even if he did murder those four people (which, after reading the case against him is questionable) surely he has repented for his past crimes.

 

[Mat]

Man, what a mess. I've done some research into the matter, and I believe in this case he very well may be guilty for the crimes he committed. But as we all know, just because you're convicted of a crime doesn't mean you're guily of it. This case, if indeed factual, has nonetheless been handled poorly be the investigators and the prosecution. They have no DNA evidence, they have no fingerprints linking him to the crime scene, and the witnesses who have testified against him didn't witness the killing.

That said, does anyone actually believe he hasn't committed some form of crime before? As a founding member of the west side Crips, there's no way this guy wouldn't have an enormous rap sheet if we actually knew every crime he has committed. In short, at the time he was arrested and tried and found guilty of murder, he was a criminal and a thug.

So now we get into the area where we look at his actions since being incarcerated and he has done some unequivocable "good work". He has called for an end to gang violence and has been, as far as I can tell, an upstanding prisoner.

For me, the first question that came to mind when I learned of this story was:

"Why the hell has this guy been rotting away in prison for over twenty years if he was found guilty of killing four people in cold blood?"

I'd like to think it was because the evidence wasn't conclusive enough, but if that were the case he wouldn't even be in prison at all. So what we have here is an incompetent legal system which allows murderers to waist taxpayer money feeding and providing for them while they waste our time using appeal after appeal.

Personally, I don't believe that the evidence was enough to warrant a conviction of Tookie. But if it was (and maybe it is if you're a member of the jury - not just someone reading a newspaper looking in) and it was clear that he had done the cime and there was no way he hadn't - then they should have put a bullet in his head the next day.

Clearly even if he did murder those four people (which, after reading the case against him is questionable) surely he has repented for his past crimes.

I'm going to have to disagree with that statement, Don. Because if he had actually repented for his crimes that would have required him coming clean and admitting his guilt, which he has never done. And for me, personally, I think that if you kill four people in cold blood, nothing you can do afterwards can redeem you to the family of the victims. Saint Peter might let you through those pearly gates, but you've lost your right to say when you're gonna show up there.

 

[DonDaddyD]

Mat it sounds like your talking from the perspective that the guy is guilty and for the most part the evidence against him isn't conclusive.

They have no DNA evidence, they have no fingerprints linking him to the crime scene, and the witnesses who have testified against him didn't witness the killing.

Also maybe he has repented but this may have never been a crime he committed he has always claimed he hasn't. I also remember reading (as was the issue with many other cases) that those that sat in the jury that convicted him were questionable....

Though I agree that rotting away for twenty years on a death sentence seems ridiculous when it would be easier, cheaper and in some cases more humane to simply 'execute' him. The issue I question is if the death penalty actually works. Tookie has achieved some amazing things within prison things I probably will never achieve in my life time. And though he was in all cases a thug and a criminal in the past (we cannot say if he commited other forms of murder he always maintained that gangs in his day weren't as violent and relentless as they are now - growing up where I live I can believe that as i have seen things escalate and what was unthinkable when I was younger is common practice now.) if he didn't have those twenty years he wouldn't have been able to reach out, touch and enlighten as many people as he has. I mean to think that a man of his background, living where he did, with limited education, oppurtunites and the type of social condition he recieved would evolve into a author and a candidate for the Nobel peace prize

I don't think executing him now is the correct thing to do; because personally I don't think their was enough evidence to convict him; sure the famlies of those that were murdered want justice but is it justice if the person that is blamed is innocent or not undisputably guilty?

What makes this hard for me to stomach is that despite whether he did or did not do it. I don't want to see him die because of who he is now. He has achieved so much and it seems such a waste.... he has moved so far away from what he was it almost seems wrong to kill him now.

(Usually I'd agree put a bullet in their head the day after conviction but the his conviction is questionable and he has used his time and life so effectively.)

 

[Karma]

advocates for Tookie want it both ways. on one hand they want to suggest that he is a hapless victim of shoddy legal representation and inconclusive evidence....they even go so far to suggest he was mentally ILL at the time of the killings. But then at the same time they say "he's got too much character to admit to something he didnt do". so which is it? you cant be mentally incompetent one moment and then possesed of such strong personal conviction the next...the two DONT go hand in hand. And may I add.....Writing childrens books isnt going to bring any kind of closure to the families of the VICTIMS.

this man founded one of them most infamous and murderous gangs in america .


OBVIOUSLY the use of DNA EVIDENCE in murder trials to proove innocence or guilt was in its INFANCY at the time of these murders because forensic technology just wasnt capable of such things. Are we supposed to go back and retry EVERY case in which a murderer who killed someone (or multiple people) over 20 years ago requests clemency or stay of execution? THAT is just as costly if not MORE SO than leaving them in prison. Give me a break.

And for all these pompous ass celebrities who think they are the moral compass for us common folk...FUCK OFF. I dont need Jamie Foxx, Bianca Jagger, AND LEAST OF ALL Snoop Dogg...a former Crip HIMSELF telling me or suggesting that a state government is thinking with LESS enlightenment because we believe a murderer should face his punishment. AGAIN i say....writing children's books doesnt REPAIR the damage that has been done.

If you cant be man enough to admit you've done wrong...and want to sit there and act all ambivalent while people try to fight for you..then ACCEPT YOUR FATE and be done with it.

 

[Black Widow]

and there you have it, ladies and gentlemen. I dont even have to post, my spokeswoman, Farrah, has said everything already.

You HAVE to look at this from the perspective of the victims and their families... nothing will EVER make it better.... but his execution will bring closure and JUSTICE to those people.

And EVEN so.... lets say he HAS repented for his crimes... in that case.... [suffice it to say] hes right in his religion... that's good for him... but in THIS world, his society has sentenced him to pay a price for those lives that he took.... a price he has YET to pay... a price that, rightfully, he MUST.... and if he has TRULLY repented for his crimes, then a happy afterlife I wish him.

As for this side of death....whether or not he DID what he was convicted of is NO LONGER an issue. he was found GUILTY, he's had his day in court and he has exhausted his appeals.... execute the bastard and its one less man our taxes are paying for. I know thats rather heartless.... but you must realize just about EVERY son of a bitch on death row asks for clemency before his execution... and the only reason theres a big deal about him is because he's supposedly reformed... but on death row... inmates become reformed to become right with their MAKER... not right with society. In the justice system, making things right with society is paying your debt... and sometimes that debt is pretty steep.... but when four people are murdered... wouldn't you say that calls for a FITTING punishment?

 

[Hawksmoor]

Actually, as a psych student, I can tell you that there are many cases of mental illness which provide the sufferer with an unrealistic world view and a heightened sense of "rightness"; most notably schizophrenia/paranoid schizophrenia, but also others. The two, Spells, do INDEED go hand in hand, whatever you may think. Mental illness often is accompanied by a corrolary symptom of absolute conviction in oneself...

 

[Karma]

Actually, as a psych student, I can tell you that there are many cases of mental illness which provide the sufferer with an unrealistic world view and a heightened sense of "rightness"; most notably schizophrenia/paranoid schizophrenia, but also others. The two, Spells, do INDEED go hand in hand, whatever you may think. Mental illness often is accompanied by a corrolary symptom of absolute conviction in oneself...

...even the GOVERNOR of california said it himself. WITHOUT AN ADMISSION OF GUILT AND APOLOGY THERE IS NO REDEMPTION. so even though i may be wrong from a CLINICAL perspective about a person not being able to be mentally incompetent AND still posses some form of "personal conviction", that still doesnt change the fact that Stanley Tookie Williams himself HASNT ADMITTED TO WHAT HE DID. He's stood back and let OTHERS do the talking for him so how can he expect the governor or any court to be moved to grant him clemency? He can be "convinced" of WHATEVER in his mind...that dont make it RIGHT.


this guy is so ambivalent ...he doesnt CARE that he has celebrity advocates, or college professors and other scholarly types nominating him for "nobel peace prizes" he doesnt care about the families of the victims either...other wise he would at least OWN UP to what he did.

the particular point about mental illness/personal conviction aside...i still stand by my original statement from an earlier post.

this man doesnt deserve clemency. it would be a slap in the face to the victims' families (whom i notice are hardly given a thought to by the loud mouthed celebrity advocates, college professors and whoever else seems to think this man is some kind of patron saint of gang reform and redemption)

 

[DonDaddyD]

...even the GOVERNOR of california said it himself. WITHOUT AN ADMISSION OF GUILT AND APOLOGY THERE IS NO REDEMPTION. so even though i may be wrong from a CLINICAL perspective about a person not being able to be mentally incompetent AND still posses some form of "personal conviction", that still doesnt change the fact that Stanley Tookie Williams himself HASNT ADMITTED TO WHAT HE DID.

What a crock of shit, what absolute nonesense; 'Without an admission of guilt and apology there is no redemption.' What if he didn't do it? He admitted to all the things he did wrong in life and wrote nine books giving justification to the fact that he knows what he did was wrong. The only thing he didn't admit to was killing those four people.

If he didn't do the crime why should he own up to it? Expecting a person to own up to something they didn't do isn't justice! Owning up to something you didn't do doesn't justify redemption! Taking the life of a person who didn't commit the crime isn't a just form retribution!

Being found guilty and being guilty are two different things; history is riddled with people locked away and killed for crimes they didn't do.

In Williams’s case I'm not even considering that he was mentally ill (I don't believe he was and THAT is the first I've heard it) what bothers is:

http://www.socialistworker.org/2005-2/562/562_02_StanWilliams.shtml

In 1971, at the age of 17, Williams co-founded the Crips, which rapidly became one of Los Angeles’ most notorious street gangs. Eight years later, with Los Angeles police eager to find any pretext to get him off the street, Williams was charged with four murders He was convicted and sent to San Quentin

The very case against him (forensics’ aside) suggest that it wasn't conclusive that he did do it.

In his original trial, the main evidence against Williams was the testimony of jailhouse informants--who even the Ninth Circuit justices admitted had “less-than-clean backgrounds and incentives to lie in order to obtain leniency from the state in either charging or sentencing.” A witness later testified that the Sheriff's Department gave one of the informants the case file on Williams, so that he could learn details about the murders.

None of the physical evidence found at the crime scenes matched Williams. A witness’ description of a suspect seen leaving one of the scenes didn’t fit him either. A shotgun shell supposedly matched a weapon Williams had bought several years earlier, but that gun was in the possession of a couple facing serious felony charges.

The trial was moved from Los Angeles to Torrance, a predominantly white, conservative area. The prosecutor, Robert Martin, dismissed all African-Americans in the jury pool, and Stan's case was heard by an all-white jury.

In his closing argument, Martin compared Stan in the courtroom to a Bengal tiger in the zoo, and said that “in his environment,” he would behave like the tiger in its natural “habitat.” California’s Supreme Court later censured Martin twice for his racist practices. Death sentences he won in two other cases were overturned because of racism.

I have a problem with him being executed for the crimes he was accused of. If he was locked away (for life) for starting America's most notorious gang I couldn't argue against that. There is no doubt that he was a criminal and had committed 'some' crimes in his youth. But this execution seems wrong to me.

As for the families wanting justice, it's only justice if the right person is punished for the crimes. Not just anyone who can be unjustly blamed and therefore expected to admit to something they may not have done.

Given the influence that this man had and all he achieved (How many of us will write nine books campaigning against gangs and be nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize) I feel that he was worth more alive to society than dead.

Sure there is one less (former) thug in the world. But if that (former) thug was still in the World he probably would have influenced more from turning down the path of his youth.

Quite frankly in light of all the 50cent, Game and many other black people in the public eyes claim to gangster life; Tookie was a much needed black role model who held up a mirror to all those gangsters and said 'What you've represented all your life is wrong and I was wrong for starting it.' No one can possibly argue with his perspective. Here was the Godfather of all Black inner-city gangs denouncing some forty years of gangs, gangsters and gang life (and subsequently a large chunk of rap music). Rather educating those to seek something more for life and embrace American society.

And he is killed by the American government for something no one can conclusively say he did.

 

[Hawksmoor]

In light of his humanitarian works alone, I believe that the death penalty should be commuted; to have earned even the possibility of a Nobel Peace Prize is an enormous achievement, and speaks volumes about "Tookie's" change of heart and character.

To broadly state that there is "no redemption without admittance of guilt" is a ridiculously blinkered claim; EVEN IF Williams did the crime and isn't admitting it (which seems a suspect claim in itself, given what Donnie said), to declare his good works and reformation null and void until he admitted his past wrongs is ludicrous. To seek redemption one does not need to announce to the world a catalogue of past sins, but merely learn from those mistakes, and do what they can to redress the imbalance they may have caused.

 

[Karma]

i think the families of those victims would disagree...and it really doesnt matter what the WORLD THINKS...its really about the families of the victims. and personally i find it hard to give place to someone who founded a gang that is responsible for hundreds of murders and assaults throughout the last 2 decades...a prime example of domestic terrorism. so even IF he didnt murder those four people (which i believe he did) he's STILL indirectly responsible for the deaths and injuries of other victims who were attacked by the gang HE helped create.

does anyone here wonder how the FAMILIES OF THE VICTIMS feel? personally feel like the advocacy for this man was a slap in their faces. It suggests that you can be a murderous, law breaking thug but then once you "find god", write a bunch of children's books and become a stoic, ambivalent man who shows no emotion...then suddenly your redeemed.

at any rate...it doesnt matter now. he was executed this morning.

THAT should serve as a "message" to these morons who think the "thug life" is the way to go. You become a gang member and harrass, kill, hurt others and terrorize neighborhoods etc...you're going to be KILLED. its just that simple.

 

[Hawksmoor]

Such a post betrays illiberal views; to take every crime at the hands of the Crips gang and place the blame at Tookie's feet is to deny free will to everyone who joined the gang and committed the acts, and to place blame irrationally on one man (he was only a co-founder, for god's sake; it's hardly like it was all his bag, especially after his arrest and separation from the gang/reformation).

Why are you labelling him "ambivalent", anyway? He has his principles, and is sticking to them, even if the lack of confession to the crime he possibly didn't commit leads to his death. In my book, that makes him a better man than most; far too many people would betray everything they stand for in order to hold onto life. The fact that he didn't buckle shows strength, and I admire that.

And "shows no emotion" - if he wasn't responsible for the crime in the first place, why the hell should he be made to feel guilty about it?

 

[DonDaddyD]

i think the families of those victims would disagree...and it really doesnt matter what the WORLD THINKS...its really about the families of the victims. and personally i find it hard to give place to someone who founded a gang that is responsible for hundreds of murders and assaults throughout the last 2 decades...a prime example of domestic terrorism. so even IF he didnt murder those four people (which i believe he did) he's STILL indirectly responsible for the deaths and injuries of other victims who were attacked by the gang HE helped create.

does anyone here wonder how the FAMILIES OF THE VICTIMS feel? personally feel like the advocacy for this man was a slap in their faces. It suggests that you can be a murderous, law breaking thug but then once you "find god", write a bunch of children's books and become a stoic, ambivalent man who shows no emotion...then suddenly your redeemed.

at any rate...it doesnt matter now. he was executed this morning.

THAT should serve as a "message" to these morons who think the "thug life" is the way to go. You become a gang member and harrass, kill, hurt others and terrorize neighborhoods etc...you're going to be KILLED. its just that simple.

I'm actually sickened by your post and it's right wing stance.

I'm telling you him being killed serves less of a purpose against gangs than if he were alive and was able to continue his message. If the evidence was irrefutable (the killing of those four people) then yes in your society he should be a victim of the full extent of your countries law.

That Man was a much needed black role model and removing him only perpetuates the problem as has been the case in the past.

But moving away from the issue of race.

What does it take for a man to express that he was wrong. Many of us law-abiding citizens admit that we have done wrong and leave it at that. This man admitted to his mistakes and then attempted to amend that by writing NINE BOOKS; of which, some comprise a series aimed at children warning them from gang life. His life work earned him a nomination for the Nobel prize for peace and literature. Trivialise what he has achieved as much as you want but can any of us say we will achieve the same?

All this from a thug with probably less oppurtunities than us and probably less education.

He can be held accountable for starting America's most notorious gang and he should be held accountable for the crimes HE committed!

Tookie never said he didn't commit crimes, he admitted that he was a criminal! What he always maintained was that he never killed those four people!

In my eyes the reasons for his execution was wrong! And in light of the issues around the original case that I've highlighted I believe he didn't commit those crimes. And if he didn't commit those crimes he shouldn't have been executed for them. How many have been wrongfully accused for crimes they didn't do? Yes he committed crimes undoubtably he was a criminal but convict him for the crimes he did do and they should have given him a fair trial.

I do think of those families but I feel that justice is only served if they have convicted the right person and I don't think they have. (This harks back to the old highly questionable view that 'anyone will do.')

And this is proof that the death penalty doesn't work, America's ultimate social solution is often used to unjustly remove those that it can victimise. But no one considers the potential of (some) of the people that are executed.

 

[Karma]

thats all well and good and you're certainly entitled to your opinion. and yes...i suppose my PRO DEATH PENALTY stance can be considered "right wing" but i am anything BUT a conservative....my views are based on what i read/hear/see coupled with my own personal experiences etc.

advocate for the thug all you want. his death should serve as an example to the rest of the Crips and anyone else like them.

funny how people think the death penalty is SUCH A BAD THING..let it had been YOUR loved ones that had been murdered by a Crip or anyone else...see what you say.

i stand by my statements...brutal, "right winged" or whatever else. I feel he got what he deserved and i hope those who have followed in his path will see the error of THEIR ways. you join a gang and participate in terrorist activities that result in the loss of life...then be prepared to lose YOURS.

 

[DonDaddyD]

So right now you've got gang members saying join my gang. And up until Tookie's death their was someone (who couldn't be disputed) saying don't. Now that he has been executed there is no one reputable saying don't.

So now that leaves gang memebers saying join and no one really worth looking up to saying don't. Yeah killing him really seems sensible and a sound solution to stopping gangs Worldwide. Let alone in America.

I don't think you grasp the scope and range of his influence.

AND

If and there have been loved ones murdered, hurt, injured by someone I would want the man guilty not the person they could pin the evidence on.

 

[Karma]

"looking up to" a founder of the Crips. yeahhh thats something every child should be doing ...i always thought the PARENTS (if they were any kind of decent parent) would be among a child's first and most enduring role models in their younger years. and that the PARENTS would have sense enough to take an active role in keeping their kids away from gangs and such--whatever it would TAKE....Thats how it USED to be done. thats the problem with people today...they expect everyone ELSE to be "role models" and someone to "look up to" instead of filling that role for their children THEMSELVES. and parents not withstanding..there are a hell of alot more reputable "role models" who ARE Black men for youth to look up to (since you just HAD to bring RACE into this) sports figures, politicians, actors, producers....JUDGE GREG MATHIS for example (a man whose family i knew well years before he became a famous judge with a television show-)....this was a guy who ran with gangs, was truant from school and everything else. it took a run in with a judge and JAIL TIME to put him back on track. he went back to school got his degrees and is now a successfull judge with a long running television show. He's a black man who turned his life aruond and he didnt have murder someone, go to prison and write a string of children's books in order to become noticed by every bleeding heart in the world who thinks everyone can be redeemed.

theres ALOT OF tributary type discussions that could lead off from this but all im going to say is....the world is not going to crumble because of Tookie's death. if anything the families of those victims will now find some kind of closure and people all around whether they agree or NOT will see that the ultimate result of his choices lead to his DEATH.

if they dont want to face the same thing..they they will take heed.

 

[DonDaddyD]

I bought RACE into this because the issue relates to me as a black man! For me the issue of race is not taboo and black related issues are important to me and by my very nature I will always discuss things from that perspective if the subject warrants it! I am sorry if you are uncomfortable with that.

No Farrah I didn't mean that some should look up to the socially angry and frustrated 18yr old boy who co-founded the Crips. I meant that they could look up to the grown man who reformed in prison and on his path to redemption wrote several books and was nominated for the Nobel prize for peace and literature.

Part of the problem is that you refuse to even acknowledge the way I percieve Tookie you much rather dismiss him as a common thug (which he clearly no longer was) and trivialise his achievements. If I could achieve one of the things (write a book or be nominated for a globally recognised award) he did in prison I would be happy.

Knowing some of the people I know, knowing the people that they chose to look up to I found solace in knowing that the thug mentality the conditioning isn't absolute. As Tookie was a living example of this.

In light of the many questionable choices of role models and black men in the public eye who only further perpetuate an age old stereotype. I found something ironic within the fact that Tookie a young black man who epitomised the sterotype with little or no eduation or the oppurtunities could grow into something far more than if he was never convicted. That alone says alot about American society.

He wasn't merely a gang member reformed. HE WAS THE GANG (well one half of it), he started it all. Seeing him of all people campaigning against gangs I would argue is more inspiring than seeing those that followed his misguided path reform.

You are right parents are our first choice of role model but they very rarely stay our only role model. It is easy for someone to say surely the parents should keep them out of the gang but given the gang in question is a cornerstone and unwanted facet of American Society the chances are many of the parents were born into the gang. It is to those people that Tookie would have the greatest influence; those that didn't have a choice and those who's familes have only known ganglife for a generation, Tookie could have influenced them by atempting to stop 'gangbanging' at the core as oppose to stopping those outside from joining in. Which, for the most part it appeared he was attempting to do.

Yes there are other black male role models not an abundance but there are some. However there are reasons why some are chosen than others and I wouldn't expect you to understand my decisions of role model as I could never understand yours.

I'm not expecting you to agree with me but due to your rigid stance I don't think I can discuss this further with you. So at this point I am going to agree to disagree with you.

 

[Karma]

stop pumping your fist of righteous fury. first of all..nobody said or IMPLIED that the issue of race is taboo and for you to imply thats how I feel just shows how BESIDE yourself with emotion you must be right about now . there have been MANY candid open discussions about race and racially based issues on this board and I have been the one to initiate more than a few of them. OBVIOUSLY black related issues are important to YOU and to a certain extent they are important to ME as well for personal reasons as well as the fact that we are all HUMAN regardless of skin color. so dont think you're a step ahead of me because we're discussing a man who happens to be black. Tookie Williams' execution and the anyone's position on the death penalty has NOTHING to do with race....nor was it even played up by the MEDIA so yes..i DID express a bit of irritation for you playing the race card (again).

secondly, I'm not DENYING what he has done SINCE being in prison but that does NOT make up for the loss of even ONE much less FOUR lives that were taken by him (you may debate that but i dont) and the HUNDREDS MORE taken by the gang HE FOUNDED. Tookie HIMSELF stated that he harrassed, robbed and beat victims for YEARS...This isnt Mother Theresa we're talking about here...and had he NEVER been caught...i DOUBT he would EVER have reformed so SPARE ME the whole "you're dismissing him and what he's become" argument because it can go EITHER WAY.

and finally...i am UNMOVED by your statements because I sympathize with the FAMILIES of the victims...one of the MOTHERS of those victims was present at the execution today and for her it was something she felt was "long overdue" SHE DESERVED CLOSURE. You may think he got a raw deal but what about those people who were gunned down?

IT DOESNT MATTER IF HE CHANGED...he STILL HAD TO ANSWER FOR WHAT HE DID and just because he chose to remain ambivalent about the gravity of the situation and refused to admit anything (all he FINALLY did was apologize for founding the crips) doesnt make him a man of character in my eyes.

 

[DonDaddyD]

I think your accusation of my playing the race card are ludicrous. How am I playing the race card?

I never once said that Tookie shouldn't be executed because he is black, nor did I take the approach of 'just because he's black' as that would be playing the race card. All I said was that he could have been a role model to some black people. That is not the 'race card'. (One thing that pisses me off is when I say 'black' and someone says 'he must be playing the race card.' I am not that trigger happy).

The very fact that you have come at me with this makes me regret even engaging in this subject on this board.

Now maybe I'm wrong but you made my inclusion of race feel taboo when you said:

there are a hell of alot more reputable "role models" who ARE Black men for youth to look up to (since you just HAD to bring RACE into this)

All I had said was:

That Man was a much needed black role model and removing him only perpetuates the problem as has been the case in the past.

Is it possible for me to mention a persons race and their involvement with their race without the stigma of the 'race card' being throw my way?

I'm fully aware that it is possible for a person to be concerned with the plight of another race and wouldn't be as foolish to think myself ahead of anyone inregards to any issue, that would be small minded. But I don't feel I need to justify that to you and should feel safe from your 'candid' finger pointing.

The reason why I said I can't discuss this subject with you isn't because Tookie is black and you won't understand my perspective. It is because of you rigid view that he is guilty and nothing more than a thug.

I feel you haven't considered that I look at Tookie as a man wrongfully imprisoned and executed. I do not condone his part in the formation of the Crips. Nor do I condone his past crimes that he had admitted to. In fact I even said for those crimes he should be imprisoned and be 'made victim to the full extent of American law'.

However for me this man was not a murderer (after reading the holes in the case against him) and therefore all that he attempted to do in light of his past crimes amaze me. The fact he wrote nine books and was nominated for a Nobel peace prize to me is an acomplishment not to be shirked at.

If for a second I thought that he did kill those people then I would be taken this from the angle of should he even deserve acknowledgement and in that I can accept your stance on the matter.

But I think that he was innocent and his incarceration wasn't as much as 'one less black guy of the street' as much as it was 'get the founder of the Crips and a known criminal off the street.' For the most part that is a just cause I just wished it was for crimes he committed. He also cannot be held acountable for the crimes of the other gang members and most certainly can't be held accountable for the crimes of the gang when he was in prison and campaigning against gangs.

As for the families I am sympathetic to there situation but I do not see them actually having any form of justice or closure as I feel they killed the wrong man.

 

[Karma]

you're out of line. it was YOU who took things where they went this time. JUST as you did in the homosexuality thread when you decided that YOUR Platform was the most informed and enlightened to the exclusion of all else. it was YOU who decided to bring a racial spin to an issue that has nothing to do with race AGAIN. i suggest you watch the name calling DDD or this thread will be closed.

 

[DonDaddyD]

you're out of line. it was YOU who took things where they went this time. JUST as you did in the homosexuality thread when you decided that YOUR Platform was the most informed and enlightened to the exclusion of all else. it was YOU who decided to bring a racial spin to an issue that has nothing to do with race AGAIN. i suggest you watch the name calling DDD or this thread will be closed.

<<Sigh>>

Ok I tried to say lets agree to disagree the last thing I want is to argue with you on your board. As for the homosexuality thread though I may have been wrong it wasn't my hand that forced yours to lock that thread it was another member who's views ran parrallel with my own at the time. But that is neither here nor there and that thread has past I thought we and the board had moved on from that. So mentioning it has nothing to do with this.

I'm sorry for name calling I never meant it as such and edited my post accordingly. I admittingly got caught up in the 'race card' accusation, I really hate it and honestly don't believe I played such a card (to the point I asked for a second and third opinion).

I simply stated that Tookie (a black man) could have been a black role model to some who would turn to ganglife. I still do not understand how that could even be considered the race card. Maybe it's an 'across the Atlantic thing' but over here the 'race card' is when someone of the same race simply uses it as an excuse to explain why they have been punished. I never said Tookie was punished because he was black.

I'm fully aware that his being black has nothing to do with his case (though the evidence I gave in my post quoted from a website and not my own tongue suggested so). All I was merely attempting to do was highlight what he could have become if he wasn't executed how is that the race card? Someone explain that to me?

Personally I would have hoped that you would have sent me a PM to stop as oppose to calling me out publicly on your board. The last thing I ever wanted was to cause trouble.