'Tookie' and the Death Penalty

Okay, here's the real question, if Tookie didn't go to prison would he have reformed or would he end up like all the other gang members...dead? When you serve life in prison as somebody's Bitch, it's easy to look back and say "Damn, maybe murding those people wasn't such a good idea."

I believe in the philosphy of guilty until proven innocent. Maybe Tookie did it, maybe he didn't. The court system is known to have been wrong before *cough* OJ *cough*.

But I also believe that Tookie could have been executed hundreds of times over for multiple counts of accessory to 1st, 2nd & 3rd degree murder. I look at it this way and maybe my view is too extreme but what if it were somebody else, somebody like Hitler. If Hitler were captured and put in prison and then wrote a dozen or so books on "How being a Nazi is bad?" or "Reasons to not join the Nazi Party?" while his followers were rounding up and murding millions of Jews. Is he any less responsible for the deaths of these people then the ones pulling the trigger? Is Hitler any less guilty than the other Goosesteppers?
 
No one can really say, just assume what Tookie might have been. I said he could have become a role model because mostly he was and did become that.

The point is that the man used the time (most of his life) and his altered perspective to do something good with his life and achieve something many of us won't. How many of us out of prison will go on to write nine books and be nominated for Nobel Peace Prizes? Ok he was a thug and a 'possible' murderer. If he did those crimes he deserved whatever form of justice his society deems necessary; those lives that he may have took will never be replaced and rightly we don't have to like him or forgive him for the crimes that he did. But the man attempted to do something right with his life and most definitely attempt to right the wrongs he did let’s not cheapen that.

Hitler and other's were unmoving within their belief and within their justification for their crimes against humanity. At least this man could admit and did admit he was wrong.

I think some are missing the point of what I said I never once said that Tookie shouldn't be held victim to the 'full extent of American law' for the crimes that he did do and had freely admitted to.


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If a person is deemed guilty and needs to prove that they are innocent then you get innocent people being murdered for crimes that they didn't do by there unjust government and people being robbed of all the years of their lives for something they didn't do. No one has the right to do that because they think a person 'may' be guilty. That perpetuates police brutality, a blame society and some of the most inhuman crimes a society can hand out to its citizens.

http://www.screen-gems.net/showthread.php?t=1425

The link above is a thread on this site. Though the person was never deemed guilty and was actually known to be innocent this is where being guilty until proven innocent potentially takes a society. It gives people with questionable motives the ability to make ultra violent actions without true justification. I really mean no offense here you're entitled to your own view but I have my own personal reasons to believe that the very nature, the very ethos of 'guilty until proven innocent' only serves to perpetuate extreme prejudice.

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In the end:

I do not think that Tookie was guilty of murder therefore I can accept and acknowledge his achievements.

I may find it easier to accept than others because I believe he is innocent that the man found redemption through his achievements (He was even involved in a peace treaty between the Crips and their age old rival the Bloods) and shouldn't have been executed for a murder that he didn't do.

I do think he should be held accountable for the crimes he did do but I don't think he can be held accountable for the crimes of the totality of the Crips. Whereas Hitler guided and shaped the Nazi party all his life (since the parallel has been made) . Tookie denounced his association with his gang that alone suggests that at some point in his life he looked within himself introspectively and realised what he had formed, what they were doing was wrong and he no longer wanted to be a part of it. Regardless of his being in jail he did come to this conclusion.

I stand by my statement that he could have become a black role model but taking grasp of the multicultural nature of modern day gangs. I now feel that he could have been a much needed role model to some that need to look towards others that have walked their path and chosen something different. What better person to look up to than a man that started it all who is now saying 'doing so was wrong'.

I never said that he should be granted clemency because of his race and that he was a victim of his race. However the evidence against the claims made in his trial would suggest that to some degree. Yet Tookie was a known criminal regardless of race, I have always maintained that but he should have stood trial for the crimes he did do and freely admitted to.

I am actually undecided about Capital Punishment.

I can however understand that those who believe he committed the murder also believe he should face his sentence. I cannot understand why you have come to the conclusion that he did it. But then equally some may not understand why I feel he didn't. That said if he did do then yes within the confines of American law he deserved the death penalty and the family deserved justice and I would never support the books or awards he received. If he didn't commit that crime then it is yet another injustice. Whatever the truth it doesn't take away the fact that the time he used between then and now was well spent.
 
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Cereal_Killer said:
Okay, here's the real question, if Tookie didn't go to prison would he have reformed or would he end up like all the other gang members...dead? When you serve life in prison as somebody's Bitch, it's easy to look back and say "Damn, maybe murding those people wasn't such a good idea."
I believe in the philosphy of guilty until proven innocent. Maybe Tookie did it, maybe he didn't. The court system is known to have been wrong before *cough* OJ *cough*.
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DING DING DING!!! FINALLY someone who GETS what im saying.

Tookie is no patron saint of gang bangers...and no one seems to realize the very real possibility that this man NEVER WOULD HAVE reformed had he not been incarcerated. OBVIOUSLY there's time for reflection and retrospect in prison because there arent many other options LOL :haha:

and while i'm PRO Capital Punishment I also totally agree that the american justice system has screwed up MAJORLY more than once....OJ SIMPSON is a prime example--letting a murderer go free (and not even at least punishing him for the YEARS of abuse he dealt to Nicole Brown) Charles Manson is another...instead of killing him as he deserved..he and his demented followers (Susan Adkins and the rest) were thrown in prison for natural life.
 
This was such a controversial case for the supports of Tookie and the victims family. It was a crime committed around 1970, a long time ago. Around the same time Charles Mansion committed brutal murders, but even that case was shaky due to the evidence against Charlie. My point is, Charlie was able to manipulate his cult without staining his hands in blood. What if Took ordered one of his gang members to murder? Perhaps that's why he refused to admit to guilt because he didn't pull the trigger. When you have a founder of a gang all the other members will most likely look up and admire the leader. In doing so, they would be seduced because in gang life your one of the "family" and to disobey would either get you killed or severely punished by brutality or something else.

And yes, its noble to write nine books. And his time in prison showed his possible repentment but what if it was a lie? How are we supposed to know that? Having been nominated for the Nobel is a high achievement.

In this case, its difficult to really speak of an outcome despite his recent decease. If he DID live he would be notorious for the Crip members and those members could even attempt to spree him from Prison, whose to say? He made the mistake of founding an infamous gang, and yes he was young. And during the teenage years most people make mistakes but I wonder if the defense is too quick to use psychology. Hawk made a valid point of the disorders and I too was a psychology major. However whenever there's a murder a lawyer will always throw in the insanity claim. If your intelligent enough to found a gang then whose to say he wasn't capable of murdering.

I don't think Took pulled the trigger, I think one of his gang members did. And if he was so reformed why hasn't one of the gang members murdered him? Either they felt for him or they knew the real truth of his secret.

Four murders is hardly anything, I've looked over worse court cases. Its still murder and those families had to suffer the loss. Just like Charlie the crime happened long ago and Charlie is still living and why? Everyone knows he's sick and demented and he even said he would kill again. Why is he alive? What irritates me is they execute a man who killed four people but there was worse killers out there who have murdered forty to even one hundred innocent lives.

The evidence found proves my point about Took, one of his men murdered not him. That could make him innocent because he didn't do it or it could make him an accessory to murder if he knew or even ordered the deaths of those four people.

Even with Took's death, it will continue to be debated on his guilt or innocence. My opinion he was innocent to the murder charges BUT I feel he was guilty to other crimes such as an accessory to murder due to the evidence found. Whether he should have been executed or not, its difficult to say. It can be argued either way. But the fact is, he was executed either guilty or innocent. And we'll probably never truly know the outcome but to speculate.
 
DonDaddyD said:
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Hitler and other's were unmoving within their belief and within their justification for their crimes against humanity. At least this man could admit and did admit he was wrong.


I do think he should be held accountable for the crimes he did do but I don't think he can be held accountable for the crimes of the totality of the Crips. Whereas Hitler guided and shaped the Nazi party all his life (since the parallel has been made) . Tookie denounced his association with his gang that alone suggests that at some point in his life he looked within himself introspectively and [/FONT][/COLOR]realised what he had formed, what they were doing was wrong and he no longer wanted to be a part of it. Regardless of his being in jail he did come to this conclusion.
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And that's just what you don't get. Going to jail is not a "regardless" situation. In jail you have ALOT of time to think about the shit you did. Hitler never had the luxury to go to prison for the crimes he committed. If he did I bet he would have been denouncing Nazism and all the crimes his followers committed. There's a reason Hitler didn't change his mind about the shit he was doing. He was in the thick of it with all the other members. Tookie was in prison, far, far away from any other Crip members (for a time, I assume). Hitler probably did change his mind in that bunker and that's most likely why he blew his brains out.

Yes Hitler was alive to shape the Nazi party through most of his life, but he had a very clear agenda in the beginning, Jews are not people and deserve to die. Once you start gathering enough like minded people together that believe the same it's pretty obvious where it's going to lead. Tookie just had to form the Crips, point them in a direction and get enough people to help him lead them in that same direction.
 
That's absurd; Hitler suddenly decided Nazism was wrong, so topped himself? Far more likely is the idea that he simply knew that worse would be done to him if he stayed alive. It was the coward's way out without repentance, without acceptance. Tookie changed a lot in his jailtime; I'm sure he too could have topped himself if he wanted, but he didn't - he stuck it out, fighting the system for his life, and trying to show others why you shouldn't do what he did.
 
It doesn't matter at this point anyways. For those that believe he should have been executed, your idea of justice has been served. For those that believe he should have received clemency, at least you can be comforted by the fact that he will be regarded by many to have been an ultimately good person who contributed much to further peace and reduce gang violence.

RIP Tookie
 
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