Who owns a gun?

[DonDaddyD]

The BBC are reporting a shooting in Brixton:


Taken from: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5390652.stm


Two teenagers have been shot in front of families with young children in a McDonald's restaurant. The friends, both believed to be 17, were in the queue on Thursday afternoon when a gunman shot one in the chest and the other in the arm. The victim hit the chest is said to be in a critical condition and the other youth is described as stable.

With the growing gun culture in England I feel less secure within my society, despite guns being illegal it is incredibly easy to acquire ‘weaponry’ and I have encountered a fair few in my time. In all honesty I feel threatened that I have so innocently encountered guns on several occasions and that such dangerous items are being wielded by the untrained and those who seek only ‘power’ from such a terrible device.

Recently I was talking to a friend about the futility and dangerousness of owning a gun and they used the aged old ‘get out clause’ Guns Don’t Kill People, People Kill People”.

Now I hope I don’t offend anyone on this site but I think that that pro-gun slogan is one of the most ridiculous, short-sighted and socially stunted statement I've ever heard. In truth people do kill people, guns make it easier. Yes without guns people would still be able to kill people – hell I don’t even need to form fist to kill – but unlike other items, for example a knife, a gun was only designed for one thing; making killing as easy as possible. Dare I say it almost takes the intimacy from the action of removing life from a potential victim. Clearly I do not advocate the use or public ownership of guns, I think they make it too easy for a person - in the heat of emotion - to resort to a moment of finality that they will never be able to walk back from and that they by design are viewed upon by many as a dues-ex-machina that can ultimately end most if not any problems or situations. When in truth, guns only make problems and situations worse.

I can only see the negatives of owning a gun and I cannot understand why they would or could be made legal – they offer no benefit to life or society. However, knowing that many of you live in a country where the gun is legal I am curious to know and learn your thoughts on the matter.

So I put it to the board;

Do you own a gun?
If you do why?
If you do not then why not?

And for those of you who do not live in a country where guns are legal, do you think they should be? Would you own a gun? And the all important question why or why not?

I’m just hoping to talk over the whole gun issue (its positives and negatives) as there is a growing epidemic growing in England where members of the public feel the need to carry and/or own guns for various reasons.

 

[Karma]

you should call rosie o'donnell. she's a rabid "gun control" proponent and i'm sure you two would have much to discuss.

I have owned two guns since i've been of age. both were small and certainly nothing that most MEN would want to be seen with lol.

a 22 and later a 25 calibre pistol.

I own the gun simply for protection of myself and my property. It's foolish to think I'm ever TOTALLY safe, even in my own home and so if it comes down to it...I will defend myself if i have to.

i was taught by a relative as early as age 16 about how to use and care for a gun and i've been taken to a couple shooting ranges in my time. the shooting range wasnt exactly my cup of tea but its something anyone who wants to own a gun should experience at least once.

to own a gun, you have to have a certain mind set. Very rarely have i carried my gun out of my house because I know what i bought it for and I'm not some trigger happy dame whose going to go out and instigate a confrontation because "i'm packing" lol.

GUNS themselves are not an empidemic...there are other problems..mostly with some PEOPLE who own guns that cause this irrational "gun control" mantra.

guns/firearms have been apart of human society for 100's of years. Even if you took guns "away" people would still find ways to kill other people...serial killers RARELY use guns for their method of dealing death (for example).

 

[Black Widow]

Well DDD, if you dont like the 'guns dont kill people' saying, have you ever heard "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will HAVE guns?"

In America, we have the CONSTITUTIONAL right to bear arms.

Now... I've lived in the south my whole life... and everybody I know owns a gun or two... of course... MOST of those guns are rifles and shotguns used for hunting... but I hold a firm belief that the most efficient gun for property protection is a shotgun. I mean, in the dark of the night, which one do you want? I can respect people TRAINED in handgun use who like them... but one, two, three sectional shots... and you've cleared the room with a shotgun-- and they ARENT getting back up.... and that doesnt require too much accuracy-- which is something you might be lacking in the dark and under surprise.

My Daddy got his first rifle when he was like 9 or 10, lol. And out in the country, where people use them for hunting and stuff like that, you find a lot of people who know WHAT to use them for... and the idea of a ten year old with a rifle doesn't scare anybody, because these arent city kids...

We have a shot gun. We sold our rifles a long while back because we don't go hunting anymore and we live in a bigger city than we used to. and I won't get into how many paintball and soft air [pellet/BB] guns we have because they arent really relevent to the discussion, lol.

Now, I'd also like to point out something really nice about shotguns: variety of ammunition type. We don't keep lethal rounds anymore. We mainly retain the gun for home protection purposes and we use rock salt and bean bag rounds which are nonlethal but equally as effective in stopping a home invasion. The rock salt doesnt go very deep but as you can imagine, burns like hell and the bean bags have the stopping power of a buck shot but don't penetrate the skin at all.

I've known how to use the gun for a long time.... I'd guess 10 or 11 years. I don't think there's anything wrong with people being able to own guns [field guns OR sidearms], as long as they are TRAINED to use them and responsible enough. Just because guns make killing easier doesnt mean much. a person has to MAKE the decision to take a life... and that's nothing to be taken lightly. even CARRYING the gun is nothing to sneeze at... because its a lot of responsibility to know that if you take that weapon out of the house, you must have the intention of using it for SOMETHING. honestly... the heat of the moment idea is null and void... becuase if youre CARRYING it, youre asking for trouble. With the exception of liscensed professionals-- people who need guns for their line of work [ie, law enforcement, military] people shouldnt be walking around with guns on their hips-- and most people DONT [that i know, anyway]

I realize when you get into big cities things change a little but I think less city folk CARRY guns than people think. common criminals, maybe... but like Farrah pointed out, she would never take hers around with her and most people have that mindset. FEW people have reason to believe they NEED to walk around 'strapped'. People who DO feel that way obviously are either unstable ANYWAY or inclined to go to greater measures to protect themselves and must live in an environment that fosters that kind of circumstance.

My family has had at least ONE gun for as long as I can remember-- and every one of us knows how to use it and I know for DAMN sure that I wouldn't hesitate for a SECOND to use it if someone were breaking into my house or otherwise asking for serious trouble on my property. I can't imagine not keeping a gun for at least protection and I know when I move out of my parents place I'll get one of my own.

 

[Persephone]

I personally don't have a gun and nor do my parents. My mother grew up in a very strict household that didn't believe in keeping guns in the home where there were children. My father (who grew up in England) also didn't have a gun in his home for the very same reason.

Because of that, my parents were very strict when it comes to guns in our home. They didn't want one anywhere in the picture when me and my sister were in the house for safety purposes. Regardless if the gun is locked in a case or has other safety procautions that can be taken. It's just the way they are. Now that doesn't mean that they don't (or I) believe that OTHER people shouldn't have the right to carry or keep a gun in their home. It's just we, personally, don't.

Now when I leave my home and go live out on my own, I honestly don't know if I would get a gun. Since I haven't grown up around them, or never actually handled one, I feel very uneasy around them. So I can't say if I would or not. But I can tell you, that whenever I have kids, i'll enforce the same rules that my parents have enforced. I won't allow a gun in the house. If my husband is concerned for our safety, then we'll get a security system and some very aggressive looking dogs. LOL.

It's really all in how you're raised, I think.

 

[DonDaddyD]

Spellbinder and Titania; guns breed the perception of power without actually giving it; I can understand your need to protect yourself and your home. In your mind you probably feel safe and secure whilst at home because you have a gun indoors. It gives you power, right until your home is broken into and your gun taken of you, hence another victim of gun crime. – It has been said that during a break-in homeowners are most likely to be shot with their own gun.

Spellbinder wrote:
I have owned two guns since i've been of age. both were small and certainly nothing that most MEN would want to be seen with lol.

When should a man want to be seen with a gun let alone a type of Gun, when a gun is an instrument of pain, harm and death? It is not a fashion accessory and though I KNOW your not saying that I cannot help but feel you amongst others are looking at this from a linear perspective and not holistically. Are you thinking about the guy on the street carrying a gun for the intention of nothing more but image and status, until one day he is bullied, bothered or beaten and if he might not have had the gun his fists would have sufficed he resorts to his gun and thus no turning back.

Sometimes I feel that in this age where guns are glorified some people will resort to them for the wrong reasons; most certainly it makes them more accepting of them. And because the type of people who take to this imagery cannot be identified a ban across the whole spectrum is needed.

More over in a conversation with my Father, yes he would own a gun if he could to protect his house and home, as he put it -when asked if our house was broken into what is wrong with a baseball bat – ‘I haven’t got time to be fighting in Lawless Britain and besides the other guy might have a gun’. Now I completely understand that but I don’t trust myself let alone anyone to leave their gun at home when they have been hassled, beaten up, robbed or raped outside their home and subsequently seeking revenge, its too easy to resort to the gun. What’s to stop a person from going home and picking up their gun to end a problem/situation out in the street, not everyone is as well balanced. And though you have already said it Farrah there is no way of knowing what mindset is safest to own a gun as people are liable to switch mindsets at any given moment. – There are too many shootings in which ordinary people have just gone crazy one day to safely say ‘to own a gun, you have to have a certain mind set’.

Now Titania I understand that in America people have the constitutional right to own a gun. But I don’t think that is a good thing, looking at all the gun crime (across the board) in America I feel safe enough and justified enough to say that. Equally on average there is more gun crime in developed Countries where guns a legal than there are in Countries where guns aren’t. This wouldn’t be a problem if guns didn’t precede death (on most occasions).

Now I got loads of respect for your whole family in that you don’t’ use lethal rounds within your shotguns to protect your home. In fact that’s all I can say because if I absolutely had to own a gun that’s probably the option I’d go for.

Titania wrote:
FEW people have reason to believe they NEED to walk around 'strapped'. People who DO feel that way obviously are either unstable ANYWAY or inclined to go to greater measures to protect themselves and must live in an environment that fosters that kind of circumstance.

That’s the perspective I’m looking at this from, by right no one in my country should own or possess a fully working gun, however people in England (especially in Cities) feel that they need to carry guns. Some feel the need to protect themselves with a gun, others because of the glorification that guns have received and the perceived image and implied ‘power’ it will give them. Either way these people have no purpose no reason to wield guns.

If anything guns shouldn’t be glorified to begin with. But I still feel that people shouldn’t be allowed to carry or own them because it is too easy to resort to them in a moment of ill-judgement. If there must be a law then all publicly owned guns should be non-lethal - made with preventative measures to stop them being modified into lethal weapons.

But Persephone/Sam is right, ‘to each their own’ and despite my incredibly negative view on firearms I don’t automatically believe people to BE evil or the problem I perceive it as what the gun is, does and can do.

 

[Osiris]

Interesting discussion. No I have never "owned" a gun. Im kinda "funny" about having one in my house, even for protection. I don't knock anyones belief or right to own one, however I believe their should be balance. I do believe in some sort of gun control, however I know its foolish to believe that legal gun owners are the cause of violence. Criminals more often than not, get guns on the black market so making it more difficult for law-abiding citizens is in many ways foolish.

By control, I prefer some kind of like VIN number system that stays with a gun starting at the manufacturer and it being recorded in a database from owner to owner like a car. However, I believe to control gun violence, we need to enforce stronger laws, and fund the police departments.

Overall, I don't like the feeling of a gun in my hand, and this is coming from a Marine, I believe that the only time I should have one is in a time of war, and Im only shooting to kill. Since I don't prefer killing people, its best I just don't have one. Besides, I have a very sharp double-edged sword, nunchukkas, and hand-to-hand skills that in my opinion more than enough fill the void.

 

[Black Widow]

DDD, I don't understand why you endore using a baseball bat to beat away intruders but not a gun. It seems to me that a bat is a more violent weapon. think about it.

And to that end.... whos to say having a gun is any different than having a knife? a sword? brass knuckles? a good ole' fashioned louisville slugger?

ANY of those things can be used in a 'moment of ill-judgement'.

I've SEEN someone stabbed with a knife.

My fifth grade teacher's son was beat to death in the head with a baseball bat by his roommate.

I've seen a fight where a kid battered his opponent past unconsciousness and had to be pulled away.

My BROTHER got into a fight with some boys at his school and someone brought out a baseball bat and some lunatic had MACHETES in his damn car.

In a world with violence like THIS, the gun can hardly be blamed.

Nothing's to STOP people from using guns to kill other people, but really, the question you should be asking is what's to stop PEOPLE from wanting to kill in the first place??

Like osiris said... if you make it more difficult for law abiding citizens to have guns then only CRIMINALS will have guns and what do you get there? Innocent people ill-equipped, if you ask me.

 

[DonDaddyD]

Damn good argument...

My only problem is that a baseball bat, a knife and other such items that can also be used as wepons were designed for different reasons. A gun was designed for one thing. In the heat of the moment a person can dodge, duck run away from a melee weapon no one is outrunning a gun and in many cases where as person hasn't meant to kill, if the weapon wasn't a gun the victim may have survived.

By making guns legal it means more guns come into circulation and therefore are easier to obtain by said criminal.

Also in the hands of some a gun gives the wielder the percieved power they so crave, it clouds their judgements... I've seen it.

Believe me growing up in South London I've seen stuff I don't wish I had nor would I want anyone else to see, I've seen violence at its worse, the one thing I fear the most is a gun in the hands of the ill/poor-minded or quite simply a person pissed of with life or simply his day.

BUT! I am from a society where guns are illegal and if educated enough then the much adorned glorification of guns will have been stripped away by the bitter truth of what they do and actually are. In my country most still fear guns and the ones that don't are the people who adhere to the celebrated gangster image and whom seem to think that carrying a gun will give them immediate power and respect. Having read what you guys are saying I am learning that it is in fact safe to own a gun if a person knows what they are doing and the responsibilty of owning such an item. Dare I say that my culture may need further teaching of guns, violence and the such and may prove to be too immature to handle the sudden impact of legalisation of guns.

 

[Karma]

imagine that? Osiris making a BIT of sense? who knew?

anyway,

In a world with violence like THIS, the gun can hardly be blamed.

Nothing's to STOP people from using guns to kill other people, but really, the question you should be asking is what's to stop PEOPLE from wanting to kill in the first place??

this goes back to the statement i made in my first response too....that even ifyou took away ALL guns..people would still kill each other. Most SERIAL KILLERS dont use guns in their M.O.

a bat, a knife, hell even a pen or a TELEPHONE could be used to kill someone.

so again i say...blaming GUNS...the objects themselves makes little sense because just about any OBJECT in the hands of a person with the desire to kill can become a deadly weapon.

 

[Arkaine]

I honestly believe the American constitutional right to own a firearm is negative to society. Most of this stems from a personal belief and general mistrust in humanity at the moment. Obviously, some people feel the need to use a gun for protection, but is it really that unsafe where one must own a gun?

I can understand the comments here that go along the lines of "Well I'm a nice, well adjusted person who isn't trigger happy!" and if everyone was the same as that then yes I could believe that owning a gun is ok. However, not everyone is like that. Not everyone has the mental capacity to handle such a dangerous object. Therefore by having it constitutionally available to everyone america is potentially putting everyone's life into the hands of the most mentally unstable (yet maskable).

I understand some of the arguments of the fact that *all* objects can be dangerous weapons if used in that capacity. I agree. However, guns are far more destructive. I hate using this as an example as it is used so much it has become trite but do you think what happened in Columbine could've happened if the boys there used baseball bats or, hell, even machettes? -- Which, I also believe should not be bought in shops.

Yes, if someone wants to be violent then I concur that they don't *need* a gun. However by giving them a gun you're making their violence the most destructive that it could possibly be.

I have no problem with sane, rational folk owning a gun for their percieved threats but I most certainly would be against legalizing firearms for the general populace. You say you own guns because you don't trust people not to break into your house or not to use a gun on you. Then why would you agree with a law that makes the latter impossibly easy?

However, I must say that, Titania, I respect the fact that you use non-lethal ammo in your firearms and maybe I wouldn't have a problem with guns if only it were that kind of ammo that was available to the public.

 

[Karma]

i'm a single woman, i live in a metro area that includes a city ( approx 38 miles south of my home) that was once the MURDER CAPITAL of this country. every 30 minutes in America a WOMAN is attacked by a man...usually someone she knows. We have the HIGHEST rate of violent crime against us (women) in the world in America...(most of which doesnt involve guns...not that that is something to crow about but just to underscore) and i'm expected to NOT have some means to protect myself?

yes ive been taught how to physically defend myself. my mother raised me with common sense...you dont go into certain areas by yourself DAY OR NIGHT, you dont answer the door to someone you dont know, you dont give out your personal info over the phone etc , etc. she engrained the idea into my head that "you do WHATEVER YOU HAVE TO DO to stop a man from hurting you..no matter what!"

..but in this day and age..you just never know.

a person can literrally come crashing through your window and attack you without warning. If your strong enough, and you keep your wits about you...it may be all you CAN do to get to your gun and and save yourself from being hurt, raped or WORSE. there may not BE anytime to call the police (and sadly...they never get "there" on time ANYWAY)

i still say that it comes down to individuals. if i legally obtained my weapon, and receieved prior training on how to us it and several other types of guns and i keep my weapon close at hand for ME but out of the obvious reach of any house guests etc and take all other precautions then i don't feel my right to own a gun should be taken away because of two pimple faced geeks who decided to engage in a sociopathic rampage in a highschool. i understand your POINT behind using Columbine and it's an excellent counter but using Columbine IS rather trite...and kind of like BUSH using 9/11 to condone all the shit he's doing.

let's be real. the LAW means NOTHING to certain parts of society like the drug world. and despite the law prohibiting certain types of firearms to be owned by citizens...you see people with POWERFULL automatic weapons...some of whom have been used to out power force back police officers during bank robberies. for every law that is passed, there's going to be a way for someone to get around it.

that doesnt mean the rest of us need to be scrutinized for it. just because i own a gun doesnt make me "act" a certain way nor does it place me in a certain profile.

i think there's some irrational thinking when it comes to guns...and i'm saying this IN SPIT OF having seen what they can do in the hands of the wrong people. My ex's brother gunned down right in front of his house...riddled with bullets; in detroit, while visiting someone, a neighbor got s hot in a vacant lot and was running for his life while they came after him..shooting some more.

i've SEEN what can happen when the WRONG PEOPLE get ahold of guns. I say deal with THOSE PEOPLE because even with out GUNS...people who want to kill WILL find a way to kill and even with gun "laws" ...there will still be fire arms out there..only then, it will be MORE of the "wrong people" who have them, leaving the REST of us unarmed and unable to defend ourselves.

the police are NEVER there when you need them. BELIEVE ME...i know

 

[Arkaine]

I couldn't agree more on the last statement about the police.

My argument about using Columbine was just an example. It is not my only reason for disagreeing with the current gun laws in America. It was a counter to the "guns are only violent objects with violent people and any object could take its place with some people" -- While undoubtedly this holds true for some cases it is my firm belief that guns make violence almost "too easy". You pull a trigger and you're doing serious damage. This is different from something like a baseball bat or even a machette (which again I don't agree should be sold in any non-specializt capacity).

While I understand the need for protection I would often try to encourage the more non-lethal means of doing it. I.e. Mace or, as Titania suggested, bean-bag pellets or salt. I am not familar with either of these modes of ammo but it has been suggested here they are just as capable of protection but cause non-lethal damage.

Understandably you don't want to feel unprotected because of other people but, unfortunatly, that is the world we live in. We fill our lives with restrictions and impositions because we simply can't trust the general folk of our populace. After all, if we could, then there'd be no need for the police and so forth.

Basically my argument comes down to the fact that we're giving people ways to kill other people FAR too easily. Should the parents of those kids are Columbine had a gun? Fuck no. But they still did. This is only ONE example of what can happen when inept people are given such power. Every time a gun is sold to a person you're putting other people's lives into their hands. Yes the same holds true for a butcher knife but again I say a gun is MADE for killing and it is made to do that as effeciently and easily as possible.

I'd relent to the idea of people owning guns if it could be garaunteed that the only people owning them were sane, rational, folk. But unfortunatly, this is not the case and I don't feel comfortable living my life where people can get the means to easily kill me so readily.

 

[DonDaddyD]

I can only see this from the perspective of the society that I live in. People in British homes should feel the need NOT to have a gun to protect themselves because Guns are illegal.

Most British homes do not have the owners with guns and so during a break-in there is a little to no gun-play involved. If there was the threat of either the burglar or the victim being shot (based on the certainty of knowing that either party will have a gun) then the chances of either party carrying a gun increases and the situation escalates, spirals and then becomes a catch 22 Thieves carrying guns to rob houses, owners carrying guns to protect themselves - in that kind of scenario NO ONE can say that there isn't potentially going to be more gun-play and potential death, given how easily a person with a gun can kill. Because in England there is less threat of facing a gun there is less threat of guns.

Moreover I have to look at not the home owner with a gun, but the person committing crimes owning a gun. If a person is willing to go against the law then one can speculate that they will either simply overlook the law or feel the need (due to lifestyle) to protect themselves at all times hence the carrying a gun outside of the home. Also who is to say that said house burglar is not going to attempt to rob a person on the street - after all theft is their life - they are not suddenly going to leave their gun at home. - Hence Gun crime.

The problem I feel is more of vicious circle and cannot start with the person defending their home. However I cannot overlook the fact that if there was no need to own a gun then there would be no threat. To that end I have to look at England and its laws, despite the worrying increase of gun crime, people still feel secure within their homes not to own a gun and that also means should a thief break-in, they don't necessarily feel the need to carry a gun so they don't get shot first.