The Cartoon Wars

Osiris

Servant of the Peace
Joined
Jan 23, 2005
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Maryland
[FONT=Verdana,arial]Like white phosphorus, the mocking cartoons of Muhammad have inflamed and lit up the battlefield in the culture war between the secular and the sacred, between West and East.

Since 9-11, President Bush seems to have understood that if we wish to win the war on terror, we must separate the Islamic masses from the monsters. To defeat the Islamic extremists, we must win the hearts and minds of the moderates.

To this end, Bush has visited mosques. He has held White House celebrations for the breaking of the fast at the end of Ramadan. He has sent Karen Hughes to State to develop ideas to show we respect the Islamic faith and that our war is against terror, not Islam. He has said more times than many of us care to recall, "Islam is a religion of peace."

Those cartoons - insulting, blasphemous, provocative to Muslims - have wiped out much of what Bush had accomplished. The cartoons have given the Muslim radicals visible proof to show the masses that the West mocks what they hold sacred.

All Muslims believe that to depict the face of the prophet or to ridicule him as Salman Rushdie did is a sacrilege. Why did that Danish newspaper do it? Why have conservatives rushed to show solidarity with the European editor-idiots who plastered these mocking cartoons all over Page 1?

"We believe in the First Amendment!" comes the blustery reply.

But just because the First Amendment may protect the right of Nazis to march in Skokie, or Larry Flynt to publish pornography, or Mapplethorpe to publish photos of himself with a bullwhip protruding from his rectum does not mean we stand in solidarity with Nazis, Larry Flynt or Robert Mapplethorpe - or does it?

Conservatives rage in rebuttal that Islamic nations tolerate cartoons, books, billboards and TV shows far more anti-Semitic and anti-Christian than these cartoons were anti-Islamic.

All of which is true, and none of which is relevant. For this is not a debate over double standards. It is a battle for the hearts and minds of Islamic peoples. And if we are to have any hope of winning that battle, we cannot condone insults to what they hold most sacred and dear: their faith.

Though State initially condemned the cartoons - "Inciting religious or ethnic hatreds in this manner is unacceptable" - neocons who lust after "World War IV" with "Islamofascism" seem to have regained control of the message. While Bush, standing next to King Abdullah of Jordan, denounced the violence the cartoons ignited and Condi Rice charged Iran and Syria with exploiting the crisis, neither would criticize the cartoons.

But if Bush cannot follow the lead of our best friends in the region, like Abdullah, Hosni Mubarak of Egypt, Recep Erdogan of Turkey and Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan, or even Jacques Chirac, and denounce the insulting content of the cartoons as well as the violence promoted by the anti-Western demagogues, our wars for democracy will be in vain. For we cannot win the friendship of these people if they believe our words of respect for their religion are a cover for an abiding contempt.

And let us admit the truth. Contempt for the beliefs and values the Islamic faith holds dear, and for the prophet, has been widely expressed by ideologues, entertainers, preachers and even conservatives post-9-11.

We are all entitled to hold such views. But if we wish to exercise our right to air them in print or broadcast, we should expect to reap what we have sown. For, as Bishop Berkeley said: "Things are as they are, and their consequences will be what they will be. Why then should we seek to be deceived?"

To understand Islam, we might read more deeply into our own history. When Christianity was as old as Islam is today, we, too, were prepared to die in crusades to defend Christians abroad. We, too, were prepared to burn heretics, schismatics and infidels. Their Most Catholic Majesties, the king and queen of Spain in the 15th century, and the father of the Anglican Church, Henry VIII, had no problem with beheadings.

Five centuries ago, Christians would have responded to insults as Muslims do today. However, given our pathetic protests of Hollywood sacrileges such as "The Last Temptation of Christ," one could argue that Muslims are simply more devout and resolute in defense of their faith than the milquetoast Christians of modernity.

Like Catholics and Protestants in the 16th century, Muslims do not believe all religions are equal. They do not believe freedom of speech and the press should protect those who blaspheme their God or prophet.

And if we are unwilling to curb our tongues when it comes to their faith, or to condemn those among us who use their freedom to insult the Islamic religion, we should probably pack up and get out of the Middle East. Before they throw us out.
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[FONT=Verdana,arial]Pat Buchanan has been an advisor to three presidents and has thrice sought the office. A founding panelist of four political television shows, he currently hosts MSNBC's daily news program, "Buchanan & Press" and appears on "The McLaughlin Group." He writes a nationally syndicated newspaper column and is the author of six books including the recent bestseller, The Death of the West, which sold over 200,000 copies. In 2002 Pat Buchanan founded The American Conservative with Scott McConnell and Taki Theodoracopulos.[/FONT]

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If the protests had been nonviolent I would be the first to say "serves you right".

I don't care how sacred you hold your beliefs to be - some jackass mocking your religion in a cartoon does not give you the right to inflict harm upon other people. You don't see me beating up stoners for making bongs out of Siddhartha Gautama.

Is the anger justified? Certainly. But the means sure as hell aren't.
 
Mat said:
If the protests had been nonviolent I would be the first to say "serves you right".

I don't care how sacred you hold your beliefs to be - some jackass mocking your religion in a cartoon does not give you the right to inflict harm upon other people. You don't see me beating up stoners for making bongs out of Siddhartha Gautama.

Is the anger justified? Certainly. But the means sure as hell aren't.

Who says that the violence was justified? The Majority of Muslims are peacefully protesting or issuing statements of condemnation or some like the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) are instead giving out info about Muhammad(saw) in order to kill ignorance with knowledge and make a negative positive.

However, its always easier to condemn an action without first understanding it.

Violence, the majority of the time stems from desperation. Why are they desperate or feel that way in the first place?
 
so i wonder, if we were to substitute "Muslims" with some other religious group and they took to the streets in anger for the ridicule and humiliation they have endured through the media and general public misconception and ignorance, would THEY be justified? especially if they started destroying buildings, endangering INNOCENT BY STANDARDS and causing unrest above and beyond understandable levels? i seriously doubt it.

there was a news article that indicated in Pakistan yesterday three people were killed by rioters, one of them was an 8 year old boy. now please tell me HOW the death of a child as the result of protests over a cartoon is in ANYWAY justified?

MOST of these protests have one theme in common..they are finding a way to point a finger at the United States..i've read it time and again in various articles...and that damned cartoon didnt even ORIGINATE FROM american soil.

personally im getting TIRED of the implication that "secular=immoral, infidel, impure" or whatever else. THAT is the theme i get from the initial post in this thread...and as someone who has dabbled in astrology , wicca and witch craft...i suppose i am a TOTAL ABOMINATION in the eyes of muslims everywhere....but guess what....I COULD CARE LESS!! PERSONALLY, i would LOVE IT if everyone could be tolerant and respectfull of everyone else's beliefs. Thats the way I have tried to be...but I havent always succeeded and I admit that....but at the same time, I've been on message boards where being "white, liberal, wiccan/witch" some how made me LESS than human in the eyes of the "righteous, sanctified christian black folks"...and if people on MESSAGE boards cant tolerate diversity then clearly we as human beings the world over have a HELL OF A LONG WAY to go in learning how to truly tolerate, respect and allow for diversity in spiritual beliefs etc.

that cartoon was CERTAINLY in bad taste and there are many respectable, influential groups who are protesting in responsible ways....but that doesnt change the fact that there is no justification for the murder of CHILDREN in the midst of violent protests.
 
Osiris said:
Who says that the violence was justified? The Majority of Muslims are peacefully protesting or issuing statements of condemnation or some like the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) are instead giving out info about Muhammad(saw) in order to kill ignorance with knowledge and make a negative positive.

Im sorry, but where did I say the violence was justified?

The killing of innocents period no matter their beliefs or origin is a sin in Islam.

Im sorry, but you went way into left field with that comment. Furthermore, just because the cartoon originated in Denmark, that doesnt make it an isolated incident.

To Muslims the cartoon has one "theme" in common: The West is continually showing that in one form or another there is a war against Islam.

Whether true or not, that is the general feeling when things like Abu Gharib, Guantanamo, this Cartoon, etc. keep coming up.

Every Westerner may not feel that way nor does every Muslim, however, some people on both sides are making sure it appears that way.
 
I think Osiris is completely right.

People are too quick to dismiss Islam and muslims as something terrible. I find that when speaking to many they have no clue what Islam/muslims is/are accept something that they are almost conditioned not to like without truly understanding it or giving the religion and its people a chance.

Now I have only a minimal amount of knowledge about the religion but when engaging with the people I cannot help feel that they are generally misunderstood. And people are too willing to paint them all with the same brush they would do extremist.

I've watched News reports here that do stress that some are displaying their anger towards the cartoon with violence but the News report also stressed that that isn't the majority of Muslims. Within all definable groups there is going to be extremist either end of the scale. What the muslim extremist are doing is obviously not right but that isn't the majority of Muslim's who are as a whole deeply and rightly insulted by this cartoon.

The cartoon is really insulting too be honest and more punishment should be handed to the newspaper that published it. It was completely unneeded and nothing more than a direct and blatent insult too the religion. In todays society something like that should never be tolerated.
 
DonDaddyD said:
People are too quick to dismiss Islam and muslims as something terrible. I find that when speaking to many they have no clue what Islam/muslims is/are accept something that they are almost conditioned not to like without truly understanding it or giving the religion and its people a chance.
.

the same thing could be said about wicca and witches...yet you dont see or hear about them destroying buildings and killing children in the name of "protest"
 
Guardian said:
the same thing could be said about wicca and witches...yet you dont see or hear about them destroying buildings and killing children in the name of "protest"

See I don't get that. Is it because there is a minority willing to resort to violence as the only means of protest it immediately cancels out the rights and respect of the majority that are protesting peacefully?

Because I don't think it does.

I condemn those who have resorted to violent protesting but I also comdemn the isulting Cartoon that ignited the violent protesting in the firstplace.


Edit: - I don't agree (having read through the initial post fully) with the part that draws parallels of 15th and 16th century Christianity and Islam today. There has been years of World Wide social growth and World wide enlightenment to our past mistakes. That has lead the majority of the World to learn to accept differences that we couldn't (as a planet) grasp or understand back then. The scope and range of technology and information prevents such a parallel from working. To compare Islam to 16th and 15th Century Christianity is in part insulting in itself. Basically what it is saying is that the religion, the soceity in those countries haven't evolved past the narrow minded over zealous dark ages.
 
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This outrage over a political cartoon following the riots in France just makes the extremists look worse and worse because, at least to my "western" eyes, the Muslims responding are reacting in a manner which does not fit their stimuli.

The French muslims rioted because three kids got electrocuted hiding from cops that weren't even chasing them. They then proceeded to burn down the cars of French citizens all over the country.

Now we have one cartoon that apparently is symbolic of the west's hatred and/or prejudice against the muslim world. It was published in Denmark and yet we've had embassies from several other countries attacked.

The western world and all of our vices can be attacked and criticized easily enough with the written and spoken word. But one thing I will not abide is an attack against our free speech. It is, to me, the only unequivocable sacred thing that we all share. Without it, the individuals in our society lose their identity, our government will be completetly unchecked, and no one can live a life of truth.

If you think I don't understand why the muslims are upset, you're half-right Osiris. I don't know the faith that you are fortunate to cling to. I'm just a punk mick working class american who doesn't like to see anyone killed. I know, to put it lightly, the muslims of the world have "issues" with western society's perception of them. But when a cartoon is enough to create this much trouble my inclination isn't to sit down on the shrink couch and find a way to get in touch with the rioters anger. In fact, it makes me think I have no chance of understanding them at all.
 
But what it was is that the face of their prophet should never be depicted. That is what the cartoon did. The cartoon was a direct insult too one of the most sacred things within that religion.

Personally and honestly (and it isn't just this board) I feel people are far too quick view Islam as a bad thing. Way people make it sound is like it is all Muslim's that are committing the crimes. It isn't it is a minority. It is a minority of extremist who have a dislike for the Western world as whole. Like it would appear the majority of the Western World has a dislike for all Muslims.
 
I don't view Islam as a bad thing. But I do view muslims forcing their beliefs upon non-muslims to be a very, very bad thing. And if non-muslims want to make cartoons of the prophet doing anything, they have the right to. The muslims may not like it, but it's not their call what we non-muslims can do with our written word.
 
But where is the line drawn?

Yes freedom of speech is a valuable thing but it has to managed responsible. If we adovcate the insulting image of a sacred prophet what is next. Back to racist Cartoons depicting the 'blackface' of the musical Mintrels? Or the extremely sexist trivialisation of women and their role in society. Isn't that going backwards?

As much as people have a freedom of speech they have a responsibilty to use it wisely. Nothing funny or positive was intended with the cartoon in question it was an attack on the Muslim peoples belife nothing more. The publication of it was irresponsible nothing less.
 
Mat said:
I don't view Islam as a bad thing. But I do view muslims forcing their beliefs upon non-muslims to be a very, very bad thing. And if non-muslims want to make cartoons of the prophet doing anything, they have the right to. The muslims may not like it, but it's not their call what we non-muslims can do with our written word.


and i have a problem with the presumption that all things SECULAR carry this unspoken implication of "bad", "impure", "infidel" and whatever else.

"Western Society" is not the bane of all existence but that is just how many Muslims paint us. THIS is where i get pissed off. If you dont want someone scrutinizing YOU for being the way you are...then dont judge THEM for being the way THEY are.

I dont have any problems with Islam either. I once confronted an islamic male about the way i heard women were treated under Islam and he provided me with some helpfull, insightfull information that made me feel better about that actually. If I was as close minded as "western society" is made out to be, then i wouldnt have even dared to ASK someone of the Islamic faith ABOUT that...i wouldve just be content to function under my misconceptions.
 
I don't think there is a line to be drawn. Every day there are millions of things written in poor taste. Anne Coulter has books full of the stuff. ;)

I've heard that a major muslim periodical created a contest in response to the Danish cartoon which asked for "humorous Holocaust" comics. When asked what was worse, a representative of the paper said the Danish comic by far.

People will never be able to come an agreement over what is or isn't acceptable in prose. Therefore it's better for it not to be regulated in my book. Regulating it is a bigger step back in my opinion. I'd rather see Irish political cartoons depicting us as apelike (like they did in the 1800s) than have harp music outlawed again.
 
That's where we are different I would rather people be more ethical, respectful and to some degree censored to spare others feelings than grant people the freedom to insult and have me read and experience such widespread racism. When Newspapers can freely use the whole range of racist moniker's to describe ethnics and draw derogative images in my mind that does not bring a society forward but perpetuate institutionalised racism, sexism etc.

That is what the Cartoons in the Danish Newspaper were doing. It wasn't a benefit to anyone it was an insult a religions sacred image expense. In the end that is not right.
 
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I agree with Triple D, just because a country has the right of Free Speech doesn't justify insulting another's cultural beliefs. But I don't think that rioting in the streets is a way to get even with the western world. But really who are we to critize the Islam world for rioting over their religion being the butt of a joke, when in America as soon as any team wins the championship mass rioting brakes out. I would rather live in a country that riots for something completely sane.

Now I'm going to say something that is probably gonna be offensive to one person or another and if I say anything that offends anyone, I humbly apologize. I saw the cartoons that were printed in that paper and I found a few of them to be down right hilarious. I take into account that these are completely and morally wrong to the Muslim world but I busted up laughing when I saw one in particular.

Somebody is bound to make the arguement that if it were my religion they were insulting I would want to riot myself. Myself, I am a Christian, and there have been plenty of things that I find both hilarious and offensive to my religion. I don't get upset, I don't dream of killing the people that thought of it, I open up and let out a harty laugh. Laughing is healthy, I think everyone in the world needs to have a better sense of humor.
 
The thing being missed is that its not so mch about the cartoon itself, but the overall feeling in Islamic "society" that the West has it in for us as a collective whole. Everything from foreign policies, to the destrcuction of the Caliphate, to the Crusades, it seems the West has had it in for Islam for centruies. While many have coped over the centrueis, since 9/11 it has gotten increasingly worse. Because Muslims are relagated to being nobodies and 2nd class citizens, every new incident just reignites the fire. We have to remember that we are not too far removed from Guantanamo and the Quranic descration, Abu Gharib, etc. Muslims the world over are feeling poweless against an invading force which is the "western countries". When people are desperate, they tend to do extreme things. The loss of hope nd despair, combined with the regulart we don't give a damn attitude of westerners, help fan the fires that rage on...
 
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mrfolson said:
Question: Why does the Arab nation hate the U.S. so much?

Im sorry, what is the "Arab nation"? are you talking about Saudi Arabia? If so, I guess you would have to ask someone from that country.

Im African American:shrug:
 
Oh I'm sorry dude, I don't think I slept with you last nite. Anyway you are muslim right? The arab world makes up 85% of muslim or more right? I think my question is relevant to this topic. So...........why does the AAArab world hate the U.S. so much?
 
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