Whats right/wrong with religion?

Osiris

Osiris

Servant of the Peace
Joined
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In a bid to actually get some pointed responses and objectivity on a serious subject I am wondering who would like to share their thoughts. Lets try to be as objective and candid as possible.

Many will say that religion is public enemy number one and some believe like Karl Marx that religion is the opium of the poor and oppressed, in many ways I agree, but I also disagree.

Also, lets not only try to find problems, but lets also provide solutions.

Who's game?
 
Sorry I misunderstood the thread well this is what I feel is right about this religion the internal journey that opens up the understanding of the Human mind body and soul to the practioner through a path of personal enlightenment.

Buddhism!

In terms of spiritualism whenever I come near a Buddhist they feel so internally peaceful and when I say, ’feel’ I mean they exude an aura about them that is honestly, quite humbling. It's like their faith and practice is purely inwards and their path to enlightenment is an introspective pilgrimage bettering the person from the inside and not the person within the world.

Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: It transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural and the spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity.
— Albert Einstein
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Couldnt agree with you more. When I studied Buddhism as well as Taoism, I was so impressed that from that day forward, I have borrowed heavily on many of its philosophies. I also tend to apply my philosophical studies of the craft as well, there are many benefits to these philosophies and traditions.
 
DonDaddyD said:
So it begs the question why not Buddhism?

Don't take that as an offensive question, but why one religion if another set of philosophies have struck you so?
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Because of one word: Duty

Islam stresses the individuals Duty to his/her Creator, Humanity, and the Universe as a whole.

Buddhism focuses primarily on the individual and the way to attain inner peace.

Islam stresses peace only through submission and service. Personally, Im a person who believes in service and duty, hence my love of my military service, government service, and God will future political service.

Besides, Islam isnt relegated to Sunni or Shia Islam, which tend to be more "rigid" there is always Sufism or Sufi Islam, which is very esoteric in nature and encompasses many of the Taoist, Buddist, and other "mystical" traditions.

Most Muslims adhere to some form of Sufism anyway, me being one of them which is way im so "moderate" in my exegesis of Quran.

Here is a little information about Sufism for those who never heard of the term:

Basic beliefs

The central concept in Sufism is love. Dervishes—the name given to initiates of sufi orders—believe that love is a projection of the essence of God to the universe.They believe that God desires to recognize beauty, and as if one looks at a mirror to see oneself, God looks at himself within the dynamics of nature. This is substantiated using the famous Hadith Qudsi (extra-Qur'anic utterance of God): "I was a hidden treasure, and I wanted to be known, so I created Creation." Since they believe that everything is a reflection of God, Sufis try to see the beauty inside the apparently ugly, and to open arms even to what is considered the most evil one. The Sufi conception of divine love is not restricted to what the term "love of God" implies, it also includes human loves with a perspective that views everything a manifestation of God.
The central doctrine of Sufism, sometimes called Wahdat or Unity, is the Sufi understanding of Tawhid. Put very simply Tawhid states that all phenomena are manifestations of a single reality, or Wujud (being), which is indeed al-Haq (Truth, God). The essence of being/Truth/God is devoid of every form and quality, and hence unmanifest, yet it is inseparable from every form and phenomenon either material or spiritual. It is often understood to imply that every phenomenon is an aspect of Truth and at the same time attribution of existence to it is false. The chief aim of all Sufis then is to let go of all notions of duality (and therefore of the individual self also), and realize the divine unity which is considered to be the truth.
Ibn Arabi describes this doctrine in a poetic language:
It is He who is revealed in every face, sought in every sign, gazed upon by every eye, worshipped in every object of worship, and pursued in the unseen and the visible. Not a single one of His creatures can fail to find Him in its primordial and original nature. Sufis teach in personal groups, believing that the intervention of the master is necessary for the growth of the pupil. They make extensive use of parables, allegory, and metaphors, and it is held by Sufis that meaning can only be reached through a process of seeking the truth, and knowledge of oneself.
Although philosophies vary between different Sufi orders, Sufism as a whole is primarily concerned with direct personal experience, and as such may be compared to various forms of mysticism such as Zen Buddhism and Gnosticism.
The following metaphor, credited to an unknown Sufi scholar, helps describe this line of thought.
There are three ways of knowing a thing. Take for instance a flame. One can be told of the flame, one can see the flame with his own eyes, and finally one can reach out and be burned by it. In this way, we Sufis seek to be burned by God. A significant part of Persian literature comes from the Sufis, who created great books of poetry (which include for example the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, the Conference of the Birds and the Masnavi), all of which contain profound and abstruse teachings of the Sufis.
 
Buddhism focuses primarily on the individual and the way to attain inner peace.
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That to me is a beautiful thing to believe. A belife that gives you total faith within yourself.

'Inside us is a million clashing emotions with the power of an exploding universe, out of our frustrations terrible things are inflicted on our fellow man and the world around us. By bringing peace to ourselves internally, we give peace to the World around us.' - Peace Beyond Passion.
 
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Personally I've always thought that religion has simply become the scapegoat. It seems all our problems are due to religion. When in reality it's people who claim a religion, take advantage of that religion, then use it to their own means. And instead of pinning the blame on the person, people pin the blame on the religion. Which makes no kind of sense at all. So I guess what I'm saying is that nothing is wrong with religion. But there are plenty of things wrong with some of the people that claim to follow it.
 
if the RELIGION were not there...then the person would not have the platform to do or say what they do that is so wrong. MEN every where use "wives must sudmit to their husbands"....a passage from the bible as an excuse to subjugate women...you have men who arent even REMOTELY CHRISTIAN using this as some kind of stone set precept to condone their archaic perception of women.

WARS have been started and fought in the name of religion (anyone remember the crusades?) and how many people's lives were lost as the roman catholics attempted to spread "religion" to those who they considered to be godless savages.

RELIGION has been used to purvey intolerance and hatred of other races and people of diversity.

there is a difference between spirituality, believing in a higher power and RELIGION.

and i have a BIG problem with the implications that some religions (mostly islam and christianity) make when they suggest THEIR WAY is the only way and that any other belief is wrong and that anyone outside of their sytem is a sinner or on their way to hell. some followers of Islam even suggest that "western society" as a whole are infidels. If you live in america and yet you have that much negative to say about it...then GET THE HELL OUT and GO EAST or WHEVER YOU THINK ITS MORE "HOLY".

i am happy and satisfied with my studies and pursuit of Wicca...yet i dont go around trying to convert anyone NOR do i try to pass my belief system off as the ONLY RIGHT WAY. I spend my time dwelling on other things and taking care of my own spiritual needs.
 
Spellbinder said:
if the RELIGION were not there...then the person would not have the platform to do or say what they do that is so wrong. MEN every where use "wives must sudmit to their husbands"....a passage from the bible as an excuse to subjugate women...you have men who arent even REMOTELY CHRISTIAN using this as some kind of stone set precept to condone their archaic perception of women.

WARS have been started and fought in the name of religion (anyone remember the crusades?) and how many people's lives were lost as the roman catholics attempted to spread "religion" to those who they considered to be godless savages.

RELIGION has been used to purvey intolerance and hatred of other races and people of diversity.

there is a difference between spirituality, believing in a higher power and RELIGION.

and i have a BIG problem with the implications that some religions (mostly islam and christianity) make when they suggest THEIR WAY is the only way and that any other belief is wrong and that anyone outside of their sytem is a sinner or on their way to hell. some followers of Islam even suggest that "western society" as a whole are infidels. If you live in america and yet you have that much negative to say about it...then GET THE HELL OUT and GO EAST or WHEVER YOU THINK ITS MORE "HOLY".

i am happy and satisfied with my studies and pursuit of Wicca...yet i dont go around trying to convert anyone NOR do i try to pass my belief system off as the ONLY RIGHT WAY. I spend my time dwelling on other things and taking care of my own spiritual needs.
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Saying that it wouldn't have happened if not for religion is like trying to say Columbine wouldn't have happened if not for video games. Wars are going to happen regardless and if it hadn't been for religion it would have been over something else.

And I'm not stupid, I'm well aware, and in fact pointed out that people have USED religion as a means of getting their own agendas done, but again that is of NO fault of the actual religion. That is the fault of blind followers who don't bother to read the texts and instead follow the figurehead USING the religion

Spells what you aren't mentioning is that in Christianity it's PART OF THE RELIGION to try to convert people. How are you going to fault a Christian for spreading the word when that is exactly what their religion is telling them to do? How are you going to fault a Christian for thinking theirs is the only right religion when that is again, that the religion is telling them in the first place.

So long as they aren't being disruptive about it, as in bothering the same person more then once if they have already stated they don't want to hear about it, I don't see the problem with trying to spread their religion when that is in fact exactly what their religion is telling them to do.
 
I wholeheartedly agree with Marx. Organized Religion is just a crutch to hang ones insecurities, fears and prejudices on. I agree with DDD that Buddhism has some good points...

But why should we need to borrow someone elses ideas on who/what god/meaning of life is ?
 
Nerull said:
I wholeheartedly agree with Marx. Organized Religion is just a crutch to hang ones insecurities, fears and prejudices on. I agree with DDD that Buddhism has some good points...

But why should we need to borrow someone elses ideas on who/what god/meaning of life is ?
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Because they claim to provide the answers we don't have. Nor could possibly know.
 
Wow, it's been quite awhile since I've discussed religion with anyone. No better place for it than here, as we have quite a few religions represented here in comparison to some other places.

What's wrong with religion? It can be misinterpreted, or in the case of many religious texts is simply so vague or is full of so many contradictions that any person can pick and choose what they want to believe. While many people have their own spiritual beliefs not specific to any one religion, it's the people who have "proof" to back up their beliefs which give religion a bad name.

Oh, and for any who care I consider myself to be a Buddhist. It's a beautiful religion and I have a tremendous amount of inner peace because of it (it made boot camp so much easier being able to shake off the bullshit and empty my mind and heart of anger and frustration).
 
Mat said:
Oh, and for any who care I consider myself to be a Buddhist. It's a beautiful religion and I have a tremendous amount of inner peace because of it (it made boot camp so much easier being able to shake off the bullshit and empty my mind and heart of anger and frustration).
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This is going to sound trivial but what does Buddhism teach about sexual relationships. The reason I ask is that there are so many different practices that say different things I'm never too sure. And even though I've read several different books about it no one has given a solid answer.
 
I will say this about Marx, while his "theories" have some points, he like Darwin and the other theorists have big holes in their respective theories. While Marx is right in his observation that many of the poor and the oppressed cling to religious ideology, he can't explain why so many wealthy and/or "well-off" persons still believe and/or practice a religion. According to his theory they would have no reason to believe. Of course Im not just taking this one liner in his theory, im summarizing all that I was forced to study of him in religion class.
 
The first and foremost fault of organized religion is its political motivation. As long as religion operates beyond the realm of fatih it will lose to atypical human vices. Religion alway seeems to operate on the premise of not allowing choice.
 
I have to say that ultimately, I resent the idea of religion. I accept that it can make you feel good and supported by something higher than yourself, and that it can be some kind of comforter, but I don't buy into any of it at all.

I truly do resent the idea, though, of evangelism - of someone telling me that my life is somehow worth less because I don't happen to believe in this or that deity. My life is whole, and has meaning for me, as it is; I do not need someone to tell me that this is not the case until I accept the existence of some bearded dude in the clouds. I am the only one who can define my life, and give it meaning, ultimately; if I should need to look to external sources for validation, I personally feel that would reflect badly upon myself (although I do attempt not to judge believers by my own criteria, since your reasons for believing or not are your own).

After all, I do, slightly at least, agree with Nietzschan philosophy here: the strongest man is one who does not need to look outside himself for validation; he is, and that is enough for him. Whilst he is not bound by society's morals, nor is he totally opposed to them; he is simply separate, strong enough to define a moral code for himself that relies on no other for validation or assertion of "rightness." Nietzsche called this man the "Overman," because he had overcome the weaknesses of mental discipline that Nietzsche saw as rife within governments and religious bodies. After all, as far as Nietzsche is concerned, to be religious is to abandon independant thought...

I also have to say, I do find most organized religions to be somewhat egotistical; they see an infinite universe, of infinite complexity (assuming you look down to subatomics and possibly beyond), with a ridiculous amount of space and time involved. They see a supreme being of some description, with power beyond comprehension, who is beyond space and time (which surely means that it is everywhere and everywhen, the true meaning of omnipresent). And yet, somehow, they think that their lives, that our species, that our solar system somehow matters to a being that vast; so much so, that we were apparently designed in its image...like a being that vast and powerful would a)have an image (at least, one that we could comprehend), not to mention b)be so egotistical in and of itself to make a small petty species in said image, or c)actually be bothered with our species at all.

I mean, if this being is everywhere and everywhen, this means that every possible event at any time in the universe is going to happen, happening, and just happened. Why, when all of creation, in its infinite majesty and wonder, is open to you in this manner, would you assign any more attention to a bunch of fleshbags who are, by design, infinitely less than you, and cosmically irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, than to that dancing quark within the hydrogen ion within the pulsing quasar near Andromeda?

It's for this reason that I admire and respect Vodoun (Voodoo) as a religion; their Loa, the spirit-gods with which they interact, are but the smallest splinter personalities of God, who is FAR too big to ever take any notice of us.

It's also another reason why I loved Alan Moore's "Watchmen;" there was only one actual superhuman within the book, and he was possessed of godlike power. However, as he became more and more attuned to the power, he became more and more detached, seeing less potential and worth within humanity within every passing day, until he could no longer connect with those he loved.
 
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Here's the problem I have with people that "hate" the idea of evangelism. NO ONE, is saying that your LIFE is worth any less. What the scripture says is simply that if you do not believe in God, then you go to hell as by default (that's the bible for ya) you are in support of Satan by not being in support of God. That is the purpose of evangelism, to try and convert others (I've said this before and I'll say it again there is NOTHING wrong with attempting to convert someone SO LONG AS once they have made it clear they aren't interested they are left alone) so that THEY are saved. If that's not selfless I don't know what is.

As far as the reason that they believe what they do even with all of the infiniteness of the universe and all that good stuff, is becuase being Christian they would have to believe in the bible. And if you believe in the bible then you think that it is the word of God written by men directly inspired by Him. Being as the bible specifically says that God does in fact love hummanity and such so that's why they believe that even with all that God holds humanity above all else.
 
DonDaddyD said:
This is going to sound trivial but what does Buddhism teach about sexual relationships. The reason I ask is that there are so many different practices that say different things I'm never too sure. And even though I've read several different books about it no one has given a solid answer.
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Well, the thing about Buddhism is that unlike some other religions, it doesn't tell you everything. You're left to figure-out on your own how things should be interpreted. What aspects of sexuality were you curious about?
 
Actually, sino, I have been lectured by people who told me that my life had no purpose or meaning until I believed in God; if that's not telling me that it's somehow worthless, I'm not sure what is. Quite besides which, I do not like being told what I ought to do, especially not on something as free-choice as religion, so to have people actively come up to me and tell me these things is really quite annoying.

Again, that's fair enough with what they believe, but it makes no logical sense to me, on any level whatsoever...
 
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