Homosexuality

[Mat]

I think if two people love one another, regardless of how that love manifests itself, it cannot be a sin. You can argue about the decency and purity of so many things in this world, but the minute you start picking apart the meaning of love, of two peoples affection for one another which can be so selfless and pure, that's the moment I think you've lost all credibility, in my opinion.

I've had similar discussions with a gay friend of mine before and one thing I brought up to him as food for thought was that I never think that homosexual relationships will ever receive the amount of respect that heterosexual relationships do. And not because of religion or social stigmas, but because when you look at both forms of romantic relationships only one of them is capable of creating life - the heterosexual relationships.

I'm not trying to argue on what's natural or unnatural. I'm just making the point that the creation of life, of bringing someone new into this world is something almost universally respected (even if the couple is ill-prepared for it, but that's another rant).
Hopefully as time goes on more gay couples will find acceptance for their lifestyles.

 

[Mat]

Mat, Anchovy is right...THAT IS HOT! :nod: an open minded man is a SEXY MAN....a man who is confident and secure....and able to do whatever he wants without thinking its an automatic threat to his masculinity...good for you!

*laughs*
Thanks, I never really thought about it that way. Now I can claim to dance better than a gay man, if nothing else (having a guy grind my leg like left me resolved to be a better lover.)

 

[ZorCrow]

But Zorcrow, yet again you talk about the Bible Preaching AGAINST Slavery..

The Bible also preaches FOR people being not judgemental and for people to be ALL loving..

And no matter what you say, you cannot RESPECT someone who you believe is committing a SIN, no matter how you slice, you still look at them and pass judgement on them, if you wouldn't have passed judgement, then it wouldn't be an issue on whether or not you agree with their lifestyle because it wouldn't be YOUR place to agree with them or not...

So, how can you sit there and SAY that the bible was Contradictory against Slavery and Segregation but NOT homosexuality? That seems a TAD short sighted to me?

Funny, you dropped you Afro Americans argument once you found out I was black. Also, I NEVER SAID THE BIBLE WAS CONTRADICTORY ON SLAVERY OR SEGREGATION . . . what kind of crap are you reading?
The slave masters were wrong in using the bible to justify their evil,
their raping, their enslavement of US black people. Black People and White Abolitionist who were Christians saw the TRUE message of the Gospel in the bible.

Also, you can honor and respect your parents or anyone who's sinning.
The thing is I am not judging or condemining anyone by saying HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN IN THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION how is that judgemental? Then by posting bible scriptures that show it for CHRISTIANS how is that hypocritical are judgemental?

If you are not a Christian what do you care anyway? I am talking about Christian Doctrine, and Christian faith. Not about personal views, your view or Hindu views, I am talking about CHRISTIAN VIEWS. Also, you have given me NO BIBLE SCRIPTURES to go against anything I said, only your own opinion of a book you obviously don't know.

Maybe I should give you my opinion of "The Merchant of Venice" by Williams Shakespeare, but wait, I HAVE NEVER READ IT AND DON'T KNOW IT WELL ENOUGH TO DEBATE it. Speaking from emotion is one thing, speaking from a belief's doctrine and teachings is another.

To another point if Charles Manson used Dr. Suess's Cat in the Hat to justify killing folks where is the fault? It's with Charles Manson not the Cat in the hat. I tell you folks .

 

[Karma]

let's not start trying to use the "afro american" argument as leverage one way OR the other. OBVIOUSLY a white person will NEVER understand FIRST HAND what blacks have experienced as far as unjust and unfair treatment. its an embarrassing blemish on america's history (which isnt that great anyway) but at the same time, WHY is it that you seem to get defensive and almost antagonistic when parallels are made between the mistreatment of blacks and the mistreatment of gays? what are we not understanding about that..because its not the first time its happened in a thread like this. Cruelty is cruelty...it doesnt matter when it happened or to whom. NO ONE should be trying to suggest that they or their race is MORE victimized than they other...because throughout ALL of human history we have seen many sad and embarrasing examples of just how truly cruel, and unkind we can be to one another...and in some cases...there were attempts at justification in the name of RELIGION :eyeroll:

and if i may just say, Zorcrow..there is MORE to this world than JUST the "christian doctorine" or the "christian view" NOBODY should be wasting precious time trying to tout their religion or belief above everyone else's and pass it off as gospel/law....MAYBE if more people kept THAT in mind..we wouldnt have such a tremendous divide in society in america now.

and finally, despite the scriptures you posted (which could be interpreted any number of ways) the bible STILL does NOT SAY OUT RIGHT that "homosexuals should be condemned or mistreated" OR that "homosexuality is a sin" its just NOT THERE in ANY text ANYWHERE in the bible.

 

[Osiris]

Well, Im definitely am not going to quote the Bible its a flawed document period.

Nor will I get into its poor translation and piecing together.

But I do have a question Zorcrow, who taught you black history and the history of the Church?

Because you pretty much fibbed a lot concerning it. First of all, the Slaves were Muslims and Animists, they were TAUGHT Christianity and the most often used conversionist verses was the sermon on the mount "Slaves OBEY your masters" ring a bell? Christianity is a slave making doctrine always has, because it doesnt rely on logic, but blind faith, the funny thing is that Jesus(PBUH) was quoted as saying if the blind lead the blind both fall in the ditch(hell), yet most Christians are spiritually blind.

The slaves were not allowed to read at all, especially the bible, and when they were allowed to read the bible, black preachers were trained as to what parts could be taught.

But Im not going to go too deep on religious history, something Im a student of BTW,

The topic demands an answer, and even in the most vague of circumstances, homosexuality is commonly viewed as a sin in all of the Abrahamic or Semetic religions.

However, Especially in Islam and even in Christianity and Judaism, NO SIN is greater than anyother, and what really pisses me off about the Christian Right, is this Moral Hypocrisy thats going on in America.

Christians are so busy condeming Gays, Harry Potter, Muslims, etc. and everything else they fear, yet those in Power who claim to be Christians and are supported by the masses of Christians produce policies that kill, starve, and steal from hundreds DAILY. While the Churches are getting bigger and bigger, people in America are starving and suffering. While they are busy singing and dancing on Sunday, children in the street have no joy on Monday.

Im sick and tired of the hypcrisy, instead of worrying about whos sleeping with who, try to be real Christians for a change, and turn swords into plowshares, hate into love, heal the sick and the broken hearted, what ever happened to greater things than this you shall do?

This is why Christianity is on a death march and loosing members daily and no one is converting anymore, because Christians have lost their way, and their religion has become a joke.

Instead of worrying and speaking out on REAL issues, they have become more involved with mega churches, books, cars, choirs, and pointing the finger at those they don't like. Swatting at a gnat, but will let a camel pass through the head of a needle!

 

[ZorCrow]

Well, Im definitely am not going to quote the Bible its a flawed document period.

Nor will I get into its poor translation and piecing together.

But I do have a question Zorcrow, who taught you black history and the history of the Church?

Because you pretty much fibbed a lot concerning it. First of all, the Slaves were Muslims and Animists, they were TAUGHT Christianity and the most often used conversionist verses was the sermon on the mount "Slaves OBEY your masters" ring a bell? Christianity is a slave making doctrine always has, because it doesnt rely on logic, but blind faith, the funny thing is that Jesus(PBUH) was quoted as saying if the blind lead the blind both fall in the ditch(hell), yet most Christians are spiritually blind.

The slaves were not allowed to read at all, especially the bible, and when they were allowed to read the bible, black preachers were trained as to what parts could be taught.

But Im not going to go too deep on religious history, something Im a student of BTW,

The topic demands an answer, and even in the most vague of circumstances, homosexuality is commonly viewed as a sin in all of the Abrahamic or Semetic religions.

However, Especially in Islam and even in Christianity and Judaism, NO SIN is greater than anyother, and what really pisses me off about the Christian Right, is this Moral Hypocrisy thats going on in America.

Christians are so busy condeming Gays, Harry Potter, Muslims, etc. and everything else they fear, yet those in Power who claim to be Christians and are supported by the masses of Christians produce policies that kill, starve, and steal from hundreds DAILY. While the Churches are getting bigger and bigger, people in America are starving and suffering. While they are busy singing and dancing on Sunday, children in the street have no joy on Monday.

Im sick and tired of the hypcrisy, instead of worrying about whos sleeping with who, try to be real Christians for a change, and turn swords into plowshares, hate into love, heal the sick and the broken hearted, what ever happened to greater things than this you shall do?

This is why Christianity is on a death march and loosing members daily and no one is converting anymore, because Christians have lost their way, and their religion has become a joke.

Instead of worrying and speaking out on REAL issues, they have become more involved with mega churches, books, cars, choirs, and pointing the finger at those they don't like. Swatting at a gnat, but will let a camel pass through the head of a needle!

Wow, such error in your response, you seem to know very little about Christians and Slaves, and Slaves did read passges, not all slaves were forbidden or did as they were told, and not all black people who came to America were slaves, and not. Yes many of the slaves, not all were Muslims or of pagan African beliefs. However, many freedmen did preach,
and many freedmen who were CHRISTIANS helped found and establish this nation.

Again, Osiris you show your one sided view and your lack of historical knowledge, maybe if you read beyond the black power pro islam books you read you will realize that.

As for anyone religion being a joke, no MUSLIM has a right to talk,
we are not strapping bombs to ourselves and blowing up London now are we? Yeah let's look at history now

1. 9.11.01 19 Muslims kill 3,000 Americans

2. 7-7-05, Muslim Terrorists Kill Folks in London

3. TODAY muslim terrorist bomb London again

4. Muslim hate mongers blame England for attacks on 7-7-05

Yep, how many women were beaten today in Muslim Countries?
How many Christians were killed? How many homosexuals were beheaded?

Say what you want to say Muslim dude, I have never spoken evil of anyone's belief on here, and I put up with your crap and lies on 2 boards,
but not today, it's time you get real with yourself. There are folks on the radio calling to bomb Mecca and Medina to turn them to rubble and to kick you guys out of America. Now do I endorse that? NOPE. . Do I endorse calling your GOD names and printing false articles about Islam? NOPE.
DID I EVER CALL ISLAM A JOKE? NEVER!!!!

I also, notice you did not print any scripture either? ABOMINATION=SIN
we know that, homosexuality is a sin and no matter how you guys twist it with you touch feely answers and your personal insults it is. But you know what, I don't have to be cocky, I don't have to call Islam a joke, or any other belief . . . one day it will be made manifest to all, whether what I said was garbage, or gospel . . . and we will see who's joking then.

 

[Bane]

Well, Im definitely am not going to quote the Bible its a flawed document period.

Nor will I get into its poor translation and piecing together.

But I do have a question Zorcrow, who taught you black history and the history of the Church?

Because you pretty much fibbed a lot concerning it. First of all, the Slaves were Muslims and Animists, they were TAUGHT Christianity and the most often used conversionist verses was the sermon on the mount "Slaves OBEY your masters" ring a bell? Christianity is a slave making doctrine always has, because it doesnt rely on logic, but blind faith, the funny thing is that Jesus(PBUH) was quoted as saying if the blind lead the blind both fall in the ditch(hell), yet most Christians are spiritually blind.

The slaves were not allowed to read at all, especially the bible, and when they were allowed to read the bible, black preachers were trained as to what parts could be taught.

But Im not going to go too deep on religious history, something Im a student of BTW,

The topic demands an answer, and even in the most vague of circumstances, homosexuality is commonly viewed as a sin in all of the Abrahamic or Semetic religions.

However, Especially in Islam and even in Christianity and Judaism, NO SIN is greater than anyother, and what really pisses me off about the Christian Right, is this Moral Hypocrisy thats going on in America.

Christians are so busy condeming Gays, Harry Potter, Muslims, etc. and everything else they fear, yet those in Power who claim to be Christians and are supported by the masses of Christians produce policies that kill, starve, and steal from hundreds DAILY. While the Churches are getting bigger and bigger, people in America are starving and suffering. While they are busy singing and dancing on Sunday, children in the street have no joy on Monday.

Im sick and tired of the hypcrisy, instead of worrying about whos sleeping with who, try to be real Christians for a change, and turn swords into plowshares, hate into love, heal the sick and the broken hearted, what ever happened to greater things than this you shall do?

This is why Christianity is on a death march and loosing members daily and no one is converting anymore, because Christians have lost their way, and their religion has become a joke.

Instead of worrying and speaking out on REAL issues, they have become more involved with mega churches, books, cars, choirs, and pointing the finger at those they don't like. Swatting at a gnat, but will let a camel pass through the head of a needle!

OK. First of all, the Sermon on the Mount never said anything along those lines.

In the United States, which is the part of history we're talking about, I believe, there were few to no Muslims. Animists perhaps, because some African Americans had some sort of tribal religion.You're thinking of the African slave trade before Western intervention, but even then slavery was scarce.

Blind faith is faith. That's what faith is period. If you're part of a religion, you have blind faith. Faith is believing in a higher power regardless of what happens. Christianity is not the only faith, so is Islam. Infact, logic is the bane of all religion; it questions and challenges.

No sin is greater than the other, true. But the difference between all the other sins and homosexuality is that homosexuality is a lifestyle, so you're basically condemning someone's life. So basically, you'd have to repent every moment of your life, which yes, is ridiculous. But Christians aren't being hypocrtical.

Slaves weren't allowed to read because reading meant access to knowledge, and knowledge means power. It's true that certain slavemasters tried to use the Bible to convince slaves that they were within that element. The Bible itself, however, doesn't support that. You cannot blame a faith for what people choose to do with it.

No policies are Christian. That would be against the creed of Church vs State. Some concepts are inherently conservative, but conservative does not = Christian necessarily. And further, there ARE no policies that do what you suggest.

You're asking all Christians to be saints and, sorry, but no group, affilliated by Christianity or otherwise, is accomplishing what you say should be accomplished. However, Christianity has supported an immense number of missionary organizations and the like. It's doing it's part. Not to the ideal level, but that's an improbable expectation right now.

We are in times where people are encouraged to accept each other and live life according to how they see fit. So yes, Christianity is in crisis, but so is every other religion. It is still the largest religion in the world, furthermore.

You just criticized them for speaking out on issues, and now you're saying they're not doing enough of it? Also, "books and such" are what propel progression. Change does not come easily. The world won't suddenly change because we decide to do so. It takes TIME.

 

[Osiris]

I see there is a comprehension problem here.....

1st of all Zorcrow, lets not start counting which religious ideology is responsible for more death....I think we would know Islam barely comes in a close second or third to Christianity.

And for your analysis of what I spoke of history, maybe you should re-read what I typed, before you go jumping the gun. I said most slaves were either Muslims or Animists, notice I didnt use exact figures, because their not precise, however, most historians categorize the slaves as either or, point is Christianity was taught to the slaves, they didnt come here Christians.

As far as free slaves that did preach, if you studied the history of the church you would know that those black preachers were taught what they should preach, some of this still occurs today in seminary, preachers are taught what doctrines to teach, it was more constrained several hundred years ago...

Now as far as Christians founding this nation, that is not a debate, if you ever listened to anything I ever wrote, you would know that I believe Christians and the religion of Christianity are two different things.

For the record, do you really believe the founding fathers were Christians and Islam was not known in America? You might want to read up of Shriners......

Now as far as religion being a joke, I believe my quote was Christianity is BECOMING a joke because....and I listed my reasons why I felt that way, I also made it a point to say that it was a BEAUTIFUL religion, I think once again you need to read what I wrote....

Like I said, you can play the numbers game all you want, but in this predominately "Christian" nation, you and I both know America has no room to speak about any country when it comes to morals and decency.....

As far as Mecca and Medina being bombed, some crazy, radical, extremist Christians really wish that.....Its a joke, that day would mark the end of Christianity as we know it, and Americas economy BTW, lets not forget who relys on who for wealth, have we forgotten how much of the economy Saudi Arabia owns? It will never happen, wishful thinking though....Muslims could never think of the same for Christians though, because is there really anything viewed sacred in Christianity anymore?

In summary Zorcrow, maybe you should read my responses, before you get into a religious, zealous, moment and fly off the handle....you will see I never said anything you accused me of saying....

BTW, I read a lot more than pro-Islam pro-black literature, that was a foolish statement. I have many years of OT and NT formal education, Religion education, Church history education, etc. and its also a personal hobby. So my views are not biased, in fact alot comes from the Catholic libraries and many Christian theologians, I mostly quote Christian and sectarian scholars so that Im not biased. I don't study Islam from the inside alone, but also from the outside. What good is a biased education?

Now Rich,

I don't know you, so Im going to be a little forgiving in your case...

First off all, Jesus(PBUH) did in fact say "slaves obey your masters", regardless of what exegesis or context you want to use to justify, the point I was making was that the Slave owners used that verse and others to justify and use the Bible as a means to control the slaves. There were many other methods as well, this was one of them. The Bible as another poster brought up has for centuries been used to sanctify evil deeds. I would bring up the crusades....but that would be obvious coming from a Muslim huh?

As far a the Muslim population in America, read the above, no one knows for sure, but Muslims were in America since America began, no to mention as I already have, our founding fathers knew Islam and the Quran very well, but it was no taught and there is a reason for that, but you guys do your own research, because if you see for yourself, I wont be called a liar.

I never once said there was a such thing as a Christian policy, I said there a Christians who make policies that are detremental to people in America and the world, there is a difference...

I never asked all Christians to be "saints", don't put words in my mouth, first of all thats not possible, and secondly in truth I said that Christians should stop being hypocrits, and there is a difference.

What do I mean by Christians? I mean those who use their religion as a pretext to hate, segregate, and make injustice in the land. Those who argue petty things like whos sleeping with whom, rather than worrying about whos eating and whos not. Where is the balance?

Im very much aware of the work that some Christians do, I support Christian charities, and give to churches that work. May God bless and continue to guide them.

However, what do you hear most about from those Christians who have power and influence to speak? And no its not charity, but divisive propraganda that is not benefiting to anyone, except themselves.

I would have loved to see those same Christians that are anti-gay and anti-abortion, Harry Potter, etc, up in arms about the WAR that we were lied about. But then again, since its a bunch of Muslims, who cares right?

My biggest beef is hypcrisy within the religion, the same ones calling out gays, are the same ones going trick or treating, telling stories about Santa and burning the YULE log, and having Easter Egg hunts.....Pagans in Christian clothing.....

 

[ZorCrow]

Osiris for you . .

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif][size=+3]One of the most frequent tactics employed to discredit America's Founding Fathers is to say that the Founding Fathers were all pro-slavery racists and hypocrites. Therefore, why should we care what their views were on any subject? African-American professor Walter Williams wisely explained the use of this tactic in these words:[/size][/font]

• 
  [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]"Politicians, news media, college professors and leftists of other stripes are selling us lies and propaganda. To lay the groundwork for their increasingly successful attack on our Constitution, they must demean and criticize its authors. As Senator Joe Biden demonstrated during the Clarence Thomas hearings, the framers' ideas about natural law must be trivialized or they must be seen as racists."
  [/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]These people paint a false picture of the Founding Fathers and the issue of slavery. The historical fact is that slavery was not the product of, nor was it an evil introduced by the Founders; slavery was introduced in America nearly two centuries before the Founders. In fact, Supreme Court Chief Justice John Jay noted that there had been few serious efforts to dismantle the institution of slavery prior to the Founding Fathers.[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]The Revolution was a turning point in the national attitude against slavery - and it was the Founders who contributed greatly to that change. In fact, one of the reasons given by Thomas Jefferson for the separation from Great Britain was a desire to rid America of the evil of slavery imposed on them by the British. [/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]Benjamin Franklin explained that this separation from Britain was necessary since every attempt among the Colonies to end slavery had been thwarted or reversed by the British Crown. In fact, in the years following America's separation from Great Britain, many of the Founding Fathers who had owned slaves released them (e.g., John Dickinson, Ceasar Rodney, William Livingston, George Washington, George Wythe, John Randolph, and others).[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]It is true, however, that not all of the Founders from the South opposed slavery. According to the testimony of Thomas Jefferson, John Rutledge, and James Madison, those from North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia favored slavery.[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]Nevertheless, despite the support in those states for slavery, the clear majority of the Founders was opposed to this evil--and their support went beyond words.[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]For example, in 1774, Benjamin Franklin and Benjamin Rush founded America's first antislavery society; John Jay was president of a similar society in New York. When Constitution signer William Livingston heard of the New York society, he, as Governor of New Jersey, wrote them, offering:[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif] [/font]

• 
  [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]"I would most ardently wish to become a member of it [the society in New York] and... I can safely promise them that neither my tongue, nor my pen, nor purse shall be wanting to promote the abolition of what to me appears so inconsistent with humanity and Christianity... May the great and the equal Father of the human race, who has expressly declared His abhorrence of oppression, and that He is no respecter of persons, succeed a design so laudably calculated to undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke."
  [/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif] Other prominent Founding Fathers who were members of societies for ending slavery included Richard Bassett, James Madison, James Monroe, Bushrod Washington, Charles Carroll, William Few, John Marshall, Richard Stockton, Zephaniah Swift, and many more.[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]In fact, based in part on the efforts of these Founders, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts abolished slavery in 1780; Connecticut and Rhode Island did so in 1784; New Hampshire in 1792; Vermont in 1793; New York in 1799; and New Jersey in 1804. Furthermore, the reason that the states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Iowa all prohibited slavery was a federal act authored by Rufus King (signer of the Constitution) and signed into law by President George Washington which prohibited slavery in those territories.[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]It is not surprising that Washington would sign such a law, for it was he who had declared:[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]"I can only say that there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it [slavery]."
-George Washington
[/font]​

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]Notice a few additional examples of the Founder's strong antislavery sentiments:[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]"[M]y opinion against it [slavery] has always been known... [N]ever in my life did I own a slave."
[size=-1]-John Adams, Signer of the Declaration of Independence and U.S. President. The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States (Boston: Little, Brown, and Company, 1854), vol IX pp. 92-93. In a letter to George Churchman and Jacob Lindley on January 24, 1801.
[/size][/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]
"[W]hy keep alive the question of slavery? It is admitted by all to be a great evil."
[size=-1]-Charles Carroll, Signer of the Declaration of Independence. Kate Mason Rowland, Life and Correspondence of Charles Carroll of Carrollton (New York and London: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1898), Vol. II, pg. 231.
[/size][/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]
"As Congress is now to legislate for our extensive territory lately acquired, I pray to Heaven that they ...[c]urse not the inhabitants of those regions, and of the United States in general, with a permission to introduce bondage [slavery]."
[size=-1]-John Dickinson, Signer of the Constitution and Governor of Pennsylvania. Charles J. Stille, The Life and Times of John Dickinson (Philadelphia: J.B. Lippincott Company, 1898) p. 324.
[/size][/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]
"That men should pray and fight for their own freedom and yet keep others in slavery is certainly acting a very inconsistent as well as unjust and perhaps impious part."
[size=-1]-John Jay, President of Continental Congress, Chief-Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, and Governor of New York. Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York and London: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1891), Vol. III, pp. 168-169. In a letter to Dr. Richard Price on Sep. 27, 1785.
[/size][/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]
"Christianity, by introducing into Europe the truest principles of humanity, universal benevolence, and brotherly love, had happily abolished civil slavery. Let us who profess the same religion practice its precepts... by agreeing to this duty."
[size=-1]-Richard Henry Lee, President of Continental Congress and Signer of the Declaration of Independence. Memoir of the Life of Richard Henry Lee and His Correspondence With the Most Distinguised Men in America and Europe (Philadelphia: H.C. Carey and I. Lea, 1825), Vol. I, pp. 17-19. The first speech of Richard Henry Lee in the House of Burgesses.
[/size][/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]
"t ought to be considered that national crimes can only be and frequently are punished in this world by national punishments; and that the continuance of the slave trade, and thus giving it a national sanction and encouragement, ought to be considered as justly exposing us to the displeasure and vengeance of Him who is equally Lord of all and who views with equal eye the poor African slave and his American master."
[size=-1]-Luther Martin, Constitutional Convention Delegate. James Madison, The Records of the Federal Convention, Max Farrand, editor (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1911), Vol. III, pg. 211.
[/size][/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]
"Domestic slavery is repugnant to the principles of Christianity... It is rebellion against the authority of a common Father. It is a practical denial of the extent and efficacy of the death of a common Savior. It is an usurpation of the prerogative of the great Sovereign of the universe who has solemnly claimed an exclusive property in the souls of men."
[size=-1]-Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence. Minutes of the Proceedings of a Convention of Delegates From the Abolition Societies Established in Different Parts of the United States, Assembled at Philadelphia, on the First Day of January, One Thousand Seven Hundred and Ninety-Four... (Philadelphia: Zachariah Poulson, 1794), p. 24. "To the Citizens of the United States."
[/size][/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]
"Slavery, or an absolute and unlimited power in the master over life and fortune of the slave, is unauthorized by the common law... The reasons which we sometimes see assigned for the origin and the continuance of slavery appear, when examined to the bottom, to be built upon a false foundation. In the enjoyment of their persons and of their property, the common law protects all."
[size=-1]-James Wilson, Signer of the Constitution and U.S. Supreme Court Justice. James Wilson, The Works of James Wilson, Robert Green McCloskey, editor (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1967), Vol. II, pg. 605.
[/size][/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]
"It is certainly unlawful to make inroads upon others...and take away their liberty by no better right than superior force."
[size=-1]-John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration of Independence. The Works of John Witherspoon (Edinburgh: J. Ogle, 1815), p. 81, "Lectures on Moral Philosophy."
[/size][/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]
[/font]​

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]Numerous similar quotes could be cited.[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]Yet despite the progress made by many of the Founders to end the institution of slavery and to recognize in practice that "all men are created equal," it is currently charged that in the Constitution, the Founders considered a black to be only three-fifths of a person. This charge is yet another misportrayal of the truth.[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]The records of the Constitutional Convention make clear that the three-fifths clause was actually an antislavery provision. As Professor Walter Williams explains:[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif] [/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]"It was slavery's opponents who succeeded in restricting the political power of the South by allowing them to count only three-fifths of their slave population in determining the number of congressional representatives. The three-fifths of a vote provision applied only to slaves, not to free blacks in either the North or South." (emphasis added)
[/font]​

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif] The three-fifths clause was not a measurement of human worth; it was an attempt to reduce the number of pro-slavery proponents in Congress. By including only three-fifths of the total numbers of slaves into the congressional calculations, Southern states were actually being denied additional pro-slavery representatives in Congress.[/font] [font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif] While there were a few Founding Fathers who were pro-slavery, the truth is that it was the Founders who were responsible for planting and nurturing the first seeds for the recognition of black equality and for the eventual end of slavery. This is a fact made clear by Richard Allen.[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]

Allen had been a slave in Pennsylvania, but was freed after he converted his master to Christianity. A close friend of Benjamin Rush and several other Founding Fathers, he went on to become the founder of the A.M.E. Church in America. In an early address entitled "To the People of Color," Allen reminded them:[/font]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]"Many of the white people [who] have been instruments in the hands of God for our good, even such as have held us in captivity, are now pleading our cause with earnestness and zeal."
-Richard Allen
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[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif] Recommended Reading[/font] ONE BLOOD:
The Biblical Answer to Racism
[size=-2]authors Ken Ham, Carl Wieland, and Don Batten[/size]

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica, Swiss, Sans Serif]If this view of the Founding Fathers and many of their names were new to you, there is a solution to help acquaint you with many of them. Wallbuilders has reprinted an 1848 book entitled Lives of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence. This work, long used as a school text, gives a brief and informative biographical sketch of each of the fifty-six men who signed the Declaration of Independence.[/font]

 

[Persephone]

This is really starting to annoying me. I'm going to be blunt, and I frankly don't care if I offend anyone because this entire thread is turning into a religious argument. I think people who find homosexuality "unholy" or against the code of the Bible are close minded and latch themselves onto the Bible to justify everything they can't. WHO CARES if a man loves a man. WHO CARES if a woman wants to have a relationship with a woman. It's their CHOICE. Oh there's a novel idea....choice! Being able to choose who you want to be, who you love, where the hell you want to go see 'Hustle and Flow'. Above all, whether it's writen in the Bible or not, life is all about choices. The freedom to live you life the way you choose to. Damn, give all this religious babble a freakin break already.

Yes I understand this thread's title is "Homosexuality: Are We Sinning?". I understand that. But I can change the subject, because i'm a damn moderator, and I want to. It just frustrates me to no end reading al lthe negative remarks, and listening to them time and time again by close minded people, saying "Gays are sinners." You know what, as far as i'm concerned, being GAY isn't the most horrible "sin" a person can commit. Murder, Adultery, Stealing....loving someone of the same sex doesn't exactly messure up to those "sins". But whatever, i'm sure i'm going to get an ear full by someone sometime soon.

 

[Osiris]

Zorcrow, why did you dedicate that post to me? Can't you read? I know I never once alleged All of anything in any post. I love and studied US history 4.0 btw, I just had this debate at work like 2 weeks ago, saying almost the exact thing you posted.

I never said that slavery was this widespread disease created by the founding fathers, there was much politics involved and some just voted to preserve unity. To say that every white person in America was for slavery is a lie.

Once again, I think you need to not only read, but comprehend.

 

[Bane]

Now Rich,

I don't know you, so Im going to be a little forgiving in your case...

First off all, Jesus(PBUH) did in fact say "slaves obey your masters", regardless of what exegesis or context you want to use to justify, the point I was making was that the Slave owners used that verse and others to justify and use the Bible as a means to control the slaves. There were many other methods as well, this was one of them. The Bible as another poster brought up has for centuries been used to sanctify evil deeds. I would bring up the crusades....but that would be obvious coming from a Muslim huh?

As far a the Muslim population in America, read the above, no one knows for sure, but Muslims were in America since America began, no to mention as I already have, our founding fathers knew Islam and the Quran very well, but it was no taught and there is a reason for that, but you guys do your own research, because if you see for yourself, I wont be called a liar.

I never once said there was a such thing as a Christian policy, I said there a Christians who make policies that are detremental to people in America and the world, there is a difference...

I never asked all Christians to be "saints", don't put words in my mouth, first of all thats not possible, and secondly in truth I said that Christians should stop being hypocrits, and there is a difference.

What do I mean by Christians? I mean those who use their religion as a pretext to hate, segregate, and make injustice in the land. Those who argue petty things like whos sleeping with whom, rather than worrying about whos eating and whos not. Where is the balance?

Im very much aware of the work that some Christians do, I support Christian charities, and give to churches that work. May God bless and continue to guide them.

However, what do you hear most about from those Christians who have power and influence to speak? And no its not charity, but divisive propraganda that is not benefiting to anyone, except themselves.

I would have loved to see those same Christians that are anti-gay and anti-abortion, Harry Potter, etc, up in arms about the WAR that we were lied about. But then again, since its a bunch of Muslims, who cares right?

My biggest beef is hypcrisy within the religion, the same ones calling out gays, are the same ones going trick or treating, telling stories about Santa and burning the YULE log, and having Easter Egg hunts.....Pagans in Christian clothing.....

No. Perhaps you're referring to Caesar's rule, which as close to what you're trying to suggest. People had begun trying to use the Bible as a means of justfying the usurption of rulers such as Caesar. Jesus told them that the Bible did not give that excuse.

You're not listening to what I'm saying. The Bible HAS been used for evil deeds. That does not make it inherently evil. You can use anything, provided you twist it enough, to support your agenda.. i.e. Muslim extremists who have found a way to twist the Quran's message into that of violence and genocide. The Bible ITSELF has NO teachings that justify violence.

Muslims were not in America since it began. Muslim empires such as the Ottoman FELL because they were arrogant and dismissed the Western empires as ignorant. At one point, the Muslims were the most intellectual thinkers in the world, but their arrogance ensured their downfall. There would be NO REASON for Muslims to visit early America. The most significant arrival of Islam was through Malcom X, and that was well after the late 18th, early 19th century.

No, there isn't a difference. When you begin to use adjectives such as 'Christian' for rulers and then say their policies are hateful and prejudiced, you are insinuating those polices are inherently Christian. But they are not. If you're trying to say some presidents have been a detriment unto American society, do so. But the role of religion plays no part in how government works.

You are holding Christians to saintly standards when you suddenly want them to drop all of their preconceived notions and ways of living to help those on the street. Refer to your comments about "large churches, cars, etc." above for clarification on what you yourself said.

You are making an overt generalization when you label Christians as such. Let me tell you, hatred does NOT discriminate. Every religion has its share of haters. Bringing Christians to the pretext is asinine.

Oh really? And I suppose what the Pope has been doing these past years is apathetic in nature? The only Christians who are using propaganda and such to their own advantage are politicians, and let me tell you, the vast majority of politicians do not abide by Christian values. Further, your characterizations are, again, non-discriminative. EVERY politician uses propaganda.

Talking about the Iraq war is opening up a can of worms, but to address your specific comments, we weren't lied to. Both our and foreign intelligence had reason to believe there were weapons of mass destruction. Further, don't try and spin the whole "Muslim hatred" factor into this argument. People do not hate Muslims, people hate extremists and fundamentalists who perpetuate violence. Kindly do away with your prejudices about Americans and non-Muslims in general -- not everyone is out to get you.

I don't really know what you're getting at. Because there's suffering in the world, we all suddenly have to drop everything we're doing, forget festivities and having fun, and devote all of our resources to helping the poor? That's not going to work. Contemporary American society is overworked and overstressed -- if anything, we NEED holidays to say sane. Further, being a homosexual is a sin in the Christian faith.. trick-or-treating is not. Some people do have problems with anything remotely associate of witchcraft, but the Christian population at large is not.

 

[ZorCrow]

This is really starting to annoying me. I'm going to be blunt, and I frankly don't care if I offend anyone because this entire thread is turning into a religious argument. I think people who find homosexuality "unholy" or against the code of the Bible are close minded and latch themselves onto the Bible to justify everything they can't. WHO CARES if a man loves a man. WHO CARES if a woman wants to have a relationship with a woman. It's their CHOICE. Oh there's a novel idea....choice! Being able to choose who you want to be, who you love, where the hell you want to go see 'Hustle and Flow'. Above all, whether it's writen in the Bible or not, life is all about choices. The freedom to live you life the way you choose to. Damn, give all this religious babble a freakin break already.

Yes I understand this thread's title is "Homosexuality: Are We Sinning?". I understand that. But I can change the subject, because i'm a damn moderator, and I want to. It just frustrates me to no end reading al lthe negative remarks, and listening to them time and time again by close minded people, saying "Gays are sinners." You know what, as far as i'm concerned, being GAY isn't the most horrible "sin" a person can commit. Murder, Adultery, Stealing....loving someone of the same sex doesn't exactly messure up to those "sins". But whatever, i'm sure i'm going to get an ear full by someone sometime soon.

You know what, what is said is said, let's get away from the FAITH argument, what is stated is stated and we are going to believe what we are going to believe only GOD will open eyes and change hearts.

NOW my own personal view, I do care what two men do, I do care about my society, we have something called LAWS. I am glad that BUSH is going to put someone on the Supreme Court and maybe another someone who can overturn the error that was Roe v. Wade and also maybe one day clearly define marriage as one man and one woman.

I think we need to have limits in our society, we have too much reckless behavior and all kinds of consequences. I do care, and I think and I personally believe that homosexuality is wrong, I personally believe it's a choice, I personally believe that gay marriage should be outlawed. MY OWN PERSONAL BELIEF AS AN INDIVIDUAL . . is that homosexuality should not be promoted in our society, we need to get gay shows and the gay agenda out of schools, churches, the work place, courts and mass media, we need to have more clear defined paths of right and wrong in general.

Now that's my personal belief, mine own view.

 

[Prophet]

I am starting to get annoyed with this topic too because Zorcrow I just really can't understand how you can approve of opression in once sense but not the other. It makes no sense.. Opression and Discrimination are the same no matter what they are applied to. Just as you wouldn't want to lose out on a job because you are christian I wouldn't want to lose out on a job if I was gay... Opression is Opression is Opression... The first two forms were depicted as Caucasian, they were white, so how can you explain your existence? People could use the bible to say that you yourself as a black man are unnatural, so I am just trying to get you to see how interpretations of the Bible can be misconstrued and used against people who simply wanted to be treated as human.. The bible says some strange things that don't make a lot of sense..

And in my OWN personal opinion is that it should NOT be used in any kind of debate or political stand as the Bible has not been proven to be the Word of God and it has not been proven to be the TRUE way to Heaven or WHATEVER you believe in. We are a cultural melding pot and it is time we started acting like one instead of all this in fighting..

What I am trying to say I guess is I don't understand how some people can see YOUR very existence as an Abomination of God, and having to gone through things that I will never understand, and then do the same thing to another "minority" because you don't agree with? I just don't understand how a black person could not support ALL kinds of different people. I know that if I was black I would be advocating Human Rights all the time, I would stand up proud and I am not saying you don't do that, but I am saying that Human Rights applies to everyone, not just those whom you believe are following the right path to God..

Sin is a very grey area, and I don't think it is fair for you to be against people who use the bible to defame you but pro people who use the bible to advocate against Gay People or Women or anybody else. That is the only point I am making.

 

[Bane]

You know what, what is said is said, let's get away from the FAITH argument, what is stated is stated and we are going to believe what we are going to believe only GOD will open eyes and change hearts.

NOW my own personal view, I do care what two men do, I do care about my society, we have something called LAWS. I am glad that BUSH is going to put someone on the Supreme Court and maybe another someone who can overturn the error that was Roe v. Wade and also maybe one day clearly define marriage as one man and one woman.

I think we need to have limits in our society, we have too much reckless behavior and all kinds of consequences. I do care, and I think and I personally believe that homosexuality is wrong, I personally believe it's a choice, I personally believe that gay marriage should be outlawed. MY OWN PERSONAL BELIEF AS AN INDIVIDUAL . . is that homosexuality should not be promoted in our society, we need to get gay shows and the gay agenda out of schools, churches, the work place, courts and mass media, we need to have more clear defined paths of right and wrong in general.

Now that's my personal belief, mine own view.

The only legitimate reason you'll ever give about homosexuality's inherent wrongness (for lack of a better word) is that it's "unnatural", and as I explained above, it's a fallacious argument.

You'll never find evidence to suggest homosexuality is a choice. Infact, I'll tell you right now that all current research is suggesting it's anything BUT.

Gay marriages will not be outlawed. People will soon not care about them. And then, people will accept them. No matter what Christianity says, what the conservatives preach, the world is becoming liberal, and homosexuals will have their rights recognized. I guarantee this. My findings are based upon historical precedence, and a growing pattern within America. The rest of the world has already given gay marriage and homosexualityit's proper dues -- it's only a matter of time.

To be frank, Zorcrow, you insult me. I don't pretend to understand what you're proposing. What angers me about your propositions is that you somehow seem to think religion belongs in the government. IT DOESN'T. Our Founding Fathers clearly established boundaries, because EVERY government EVER influenced directly by religion has FALLEN. You think it's some kind of coincidence that when Queen Elizabeth allowed religious tolerance and ruled with her conscience rather than a Bible that she had one of the most successful reigns of her time, and pulled the government out of a previous slump held by Queen Mary, who passionately envoked Christianity (or Catholicism, specifically)? I repeat: every single empire who has ever ruled based on a religion has fallen.

You can cling to the values of your faith book. Fine. Whatever. It's not my problem what you believe, nor do I care to argue what you believe. But when you start imposing those values on others and judge those who you have no place to judge, I have a problem.

 

[Osiris]

Rich, I don't mean any harm, but what are you talking about? How could Jesus(PBUH), tell anybody anything about the bible, when the first NT writing didnt even surface until 30-60yrs after his departure? The Bible as it is known in most parts wasnt even complete until several centuries later.

As far as Muslim immigration that started in the 1800's, but Muslims have been in America since the 1st slave ships hit the shores...

Furthermore, don't mix your perceptions and assumptions with what I actually wrote. There is no secret code in what I wrote. I meant what I said as I typed it and was quite clear, no need to associate your interpretations and try to apply them to me and tell me what im insinuating.

Lastly, let me make something clear since you don't know me, I am an American born and raised, I have served this country HONORABLY in the United States Marine Corps, and I currently serve this country in the Government.

As Iraq is concerned it was a lie, there never was no WMD, there was no Al-Qaeda connection, etc. the Neo-cons wanted Baghdad since the 1st war, I suggest you do a little research on this topic. Who ever said anyone was out to get anyone? Excuse my sarcasm, but I could care less if there was an anti-Islam agenda, Islam, can't be destroyed.

As far as Christianity and trick-or-treating, Santa, and the Easter Bunny is concerned, please show me a scripture where these actions are acceptable in Christianity? Where did Jesus(PBUH) tell his followers to do such things? There are plenty of Pagans on this board, so I will spare you the description, research the origins of Samhain, Yule, and Ostara and tell me how they apply to Christianity.

 

[Persephone]

I'm going to stop reading this thread because this is really starting to piss me off. I can't believe there are so many close minded people out there as to THINK people should completely DICTATE the way others choose to live their lives. It's the United States of America for God sakes. People move here, live here, to live the American dream. To live without limitations, without being judged or hated. Look at the fucking Constitution. If you want BUSH to dictate how others should live, then maybe we should reevaluate our current status as a nation and change it from a democracy to a dictatorship.

But then again, that's MY opinion.

 

[ZorCrow]

Rich, I don't mean any harm, but what are you talking about? How could Jesus(PBUH), tell anybody anything about the bible, when the first NT writing didnt even surface until 30-60yrs after his departure? The Bible as it is known in most parts wasnt even complete until several centuries later.

As far as Muslim immigration that started in the 1800's, but Muslims have been in America since the 1st slave ships hit the shores...

Furthermore, don't mix your perceptions and assumptions with what I actually wrote. There is no secret code in what I wrote. I meant what I said as I typed it and was quite clear, no need to associate your interpretations and try to apply them to me and tell me what im insinuating.

Lastly, let me make something clear since you don't know me, I am an American born and raised, I have served this country HONORABLY in the United States Marine Corps, and I currently serve this country in the Government.

As Iraq is concerned it was a lie, there never was no WMD, there was no Al-Qaeda connection, etc. the Neo-cons wanted Baghdad since the 1st war, I suggest you do a little research on this topic. Who ever said anyone was out to get anyone? Excuse my sarcasm, but I could care less if there was an anti-Islam agenda, Islam, can't be destroyed.

As far as Christianity and trick-or-treating, Santa, and the Easter Bunny is concerned, please show me a scripture where these actions are acceptable in Christianity? Where did Jesus(PBUH) tell his followers to do such things? There are plenty of Pagans on this board, so I will spare you the description, research the origins of Samhain, Yule, and Ostara and tell me how they apply to Christianity.

Slavery in the Middle East

For Islamic views on slavery see Islam and slavery.

The Arab world traded in slaves like many other cultures of the time. The Moors starting in the 8th century raided mediterranean coastal areas and would carry away sometimes whole villages to the Moorish slave markets on the Barbary Coast. The slave trade from East Africa to Arabia was dominated by Arab and African traders in the coastal cities of Zanzibar, Dar Es Salaam and Mombasa.

Many Turkic and Circassian males from northern Black Sea regions who were enlisted into the army. These soldier classes were named Mamelukes and Janissaries and were mainly responsible for the expulsion of the Crusaders from Palestine.


[size=+3]Richard Allen and African-American Identity[/size]

[size=+2] A Black Ex-Slave in Early America's White Society Preserves His Cultural Identity by Creating Separate Institutions [/size]

[size=+2]by James Henretta[/size]

[size=+2]

[/size] [size=+2] [/size] [size=+2][size=+2]R[size=+1]ichard Allen was a success. Born into slavery in Philadelphia in 1760, he died in 1831 not only free but influential, a founder of the African Methodist Episcopal Church and its first bishop. Allen's rise has much of the classic American success story about it, but he bears a larger significance: Allen, as one of the first African-Americans to be emancipated during the Revolutionary Era, had to forge an identity for his people as well as for himself. [/size][/size][/size][size=+2][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2]S[size=+1]old as a child along with his family to a farmer in Delaware, Allen began his ascent in 1777, when he was converted to Methodism by Freeborn Garretson, an itinerant preacher. Garretson also converted Allen's master and convinced him that on Judgment Day slaveholders would be "weighted in the balance, and . . . found wanting." Allowed by his repentant owner to buy his freedom, Allen earned a living sawing cordwood and driving a wagon during the Revolutionary War. After the war he furthered the Methodist cause by becoming a "licensed exhorter," preaching to blacks and whites from New York to South Carolina. His efforts attracted the attention of Methodist leaders, including Francis Asbury, the first American bishop of the Methodist Church. In 1786 Allen was appointed as an assistant minister in Philadelphia, serving the racially mixed congregation of St. Georgeþs Methodist Church. The following year he and Absalom Jones, another black preacher, joined other ex-slaves and Quaker philanthropists to form the Free African Society, a quasi-religious benevolent organization that offered fellowship and mutual aid to "free Africans and their descendants." [/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][size=+2][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2]A[size=+1]llen remained a staunch Methodist throughout his life. In 1789, when the Free African Society adopted various Quaker practices, such as having fifteen minutes of silence at its meetings, Allen led a withdrawal of those who preferred more enthusiastic Methodist practices. In 1794 he rejected an offer to become the pastor of the church the Free African Society had built, St. Thomas's African Episcopal Church, a position ultimately accepted by Absalom Jones. A large majority of the society had chosen to affiliate with the white Episcopal (formerly Anglican) Church because much of the city's black community had been Anglican since the 1740s. "I informed them that I could not be anything else but a Methodist, as I was born and awakened under them," Allen recalled. [/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][size=+2][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2]T[size=+1]o reconcile his faith and his African-American identity, Allen decided to form his own congregation. He gathered a group of ten black Methodists and took over a blacksmith's shop in the increasingly black southern section of the city, converting it to the Bethel African Methodist Episcopal Church. Although the Bethel Church opened in a ceremony led by Bishop Francis Asbury in July 1794, its tiny congregation worshiped "separate from our white brethren." [/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][size=+2][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2]A[size=+1]llen's decision to found a black congregation was partly a response to white racism. Although var width='300'; var height='600'; var swf_path='http://cdn.fastclick.net/fastclick.net/cid16040/s-newgen_november_300X600.swf'; var img_path='http://cdn.fastclick.net/fastclick.net/cid16040/s-newgen_november_300X600.gif'; var click_url='http://media.fastclick.net/w/click.here?cid=16040&mid=50887&sid=7651&m=8&c=0'; var click_url2='http://media.fastclick.net/w/click.here?cid=16040&mid=50887&sid=7651&m=8&c=0'; var bcolor='#ffffff'; most white Methodists in the 1790s favored emancipation, they did not treat free blacks as equals. They refused to allow African-Americans to be buried in the congregationþs cemetery and, in a famous incident in 1792, segregated them into a newly built gallery of St. George's Methodist Church. But Allen's action also reflected a desire among African- Americans to control their religious lives, to have the power, for example, "to call any brother that appears to us adequate to the task to preach or exhort as a local preacher, without the interference of the Conference." By 1795 the congregation of Allen's Bethel Church numbered 121; a decade later it had grown to 457, and by 1813 it had reached 1,272. [/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][size=+2][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2]B[size=+1]ethel's rapid expansion reflected the growth of Philadelphia's black population, which numbered nearly 10,000 by 1810, and the appeal of Methodist practices. Newly freed blacks welcomed "love feasts," which allowed the full expression of emotions repressed under slavery. They were attracted as well by the church's strict system of discipline--its communal sanctions against drinking, gambling, and infidelity--which helped them bring order to their lives. Allen's preaching also played a role; the excellence of his sermons was recognized in 1799, when Bishop Asbury ordained him as the first black deacon of the Methodist Church. [/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][size=+2][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2]B[size=+1]ut over the years Allen and other blacks grew dissatisfied with Methodism, as white ministers retreated from their antislavery principles and attempted to curb the autonomy of African-American congregations. In 1807 the Bethel Church added an "African Supplement" to its articles of incorporation; in 1816 it won legal recognition as an independent church. In the same year Allen and representatives from four other black Methodist congregations (in Baltimore; Wilmington, Delaware; Salem, New Jersey; and Attleboro, Pennsylvania) met at the Bethel Church to organize a new denomination, the African Methodist Episcopal Church. Allen was chosen as the first bishop of the church, the first fully independent black denomination in America. He had succeeded in charting a separate religious identity for African-Americans. [/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][size=+2][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2]A[size=+1]llen also recognized the importance of education to the future of the African-American community. In 1795 he opened a day school for sixty children and in 1804 founded the "Society of Free People of Colour for Promoting the Instruction and School Education of Children of African Descent." By 1811 there were no fewer than 11 black schools in the city. [/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][size=+2][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2]B[size=+1]ut where did Allen think "free people of colour" should look for their future? This question had arisen in Philadelphia in 1787, when William Thornton had promoted a plan devised by antislavery groups in London to settle free American blacks (and emancipated slaves from the West Indies) in Sierra Leone, an independent state they had founded on the west coast of Africa. Many blacks in Boston and Newport had endorsed this scheme, but the members of Philadelphiaþs Free African Society had rejected it. They preferred to seek advancement in America, but on their own cultural terms. The process took place on two levels: As a social group, Philadelphia blacks embraced their ancestral heritage by forming "African" churches and benevolent societies. As individuals, however, they affirmed their American identity by taking English names (although virtually never those of their former owners). This dual strategy brought pride but not significant gains in wealth and status. Nonetheless, Philadelphiaþs African-Americans rejected colonization when the issue was raised again just after 1800: only four people signed up for emigration to Sierra Leone. [/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][size=+2][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2]I[size=+1]nstead, the city's black community petitioned the state and national governments to end slavery and the slave trade and repeal the Fugitive Slave Act of 1793, which allowed slaveowners to seize blacks without a warrant. As if to underline the importance of these political initiatives, Allen was temporarily seized in 1806 as a fugitive slave, showing that even the most prominent northern blacks could not be sure of their freedom. This experience may account for Allen's initial support for the American Colonization Society, a predominantly white organization founded in 1817 to promote the settlement of free blacks in Africa. This scheme was immediately condemned at a mass meeting of nearly 3,000 Philadelphia blacks, who set forth a different vision of the African-American future: "Whereas our ancestors (not of choice) were the first successful cultivators of the wilds of America, we their descendants feel ourselves entitled to participate in the blessings of her luxuriant soil." [/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][size=+2][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2]P[size=+1]hiladelphia's black community, including Allen, was more favorably inclined toward the Haitian Emigration Society, which was founded in 1824 to help African-Americans settle in that island republic. But when that venture failed, Allen forcefully urged blacks to remain in the United States. In November 1827 he made a compelling argument in Freedomþs Journal, the nationþs first black newspaper: "This land which we have watered with our tears and our blood is now our mother country." [/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][size=+2][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2][size=+1][size=+2]B[size=+1]orn a slave of African ancestry, Allen learned to live as a free man in white America, rejecting emigration and preserving his cultural identity by creating separate African-American institutions. But it meant that he cast his lot, and that of his descendants, with a society pervaded by racism. It was a brave decision, both characteristic of the man who made it and indicative of the limited choices available to those freed from the bonds of slavery.[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]

Lemuel Haynes was probably the first African American ordained by a mainstream Protestant Church in the United States.

Haynes, the abandoned child of an African father and "a white woman of respectable ancestry," was born in 1753 at West Hartford, Connecticut. Five months later, he was bound to service until the age of 21 to David Rose of Middle Granville, Massachusetts.

With only a rudimentary formal education, Haynes developed a passion for books, especially the Bible and books on theology. As an adolescent, he frequently conducted services at the town parish, sometimes reading sermons of his own.

When his indenture ended in 1774, Haynes enlisted as a "Minuteman" in the local militia. While serving in the militia, he wrote a lengthy ballad-sermon about the April, 1775 Battle of Lexington. In the title of the poem, he refers to himself as "Lemuel a young Mollato who obtained what little knowledge he possesses, by his own Application to Letters." Although the poem emphasized the conflict between slavery and freedom, it did not directly address black slavery.

After the war, Haynes turned down the opportunity to study at Dartmouth College, instead choosing to study Latin and Greek with clergymen in Connecticut. In 1780 he was licensed to preach. He accepted a position with a white congregation in Middle Granville and later married a young white schoolteacher, Elizabeth Babbitt. In 1785, Haynes was officially ordained as a Congregational minister.

Haynes held three pastorships after his ordination. The first was with an all-white congregation in Torrington, Connecticut, where he left after two years due to the active prejudice of several members.

His second call to the pulpit, from a mostly white church in Rutland, Vermont that had a few "poor Africans," lasted for 30 years. During that time, Haynes developed an international reputation as a preacher and writer. In 1804, he received an honorary Master of Arts degree from Middlebury College, the first ever bestowed upon an African American. In 1801, he published a tract called "The Nature and Importance of True Republicanism..." which contained his only public statement on the subject of race or slavery.

Haynes was a lifelong admirer of George Washington and an ardent Federalist. In 1818, conflicts with his congregation, ostensibly over politics and style, led to a parting; there was some speculation, however, that the church's displeasure with Haynes stemmed from racism. Haynes himself was known to say that "he lived with the people of Rutland thirty years, and they were so sagacious that at the end of that time they found out that he was a nigger, and so turned him away."

His last appointment was in Manchester, Vermont, where he counseled two men convicted of murder; they narrowly escaped hanging when the alleged "victim" reappeared. Haynes's writings on the seven-year ordeal became a bestseller for a decade.

For the last eleven years of his life, Haynes ministered to a congregation in upstate New York. He died in 1833, at the age of 80.

Nearly 150 years after his death, a manuscript written by Haynes around 1776 was discovered, in which he boldly stated "That an African... has an undeniable right to his Liberty." The treatise went on to condemn slavery as sin, and pointed out the irony of slaveowners fighting for their own liberty while denying it to others.

 

[Bane]

Rich, I don't mean any harm, but what are you talking about? How could Jesus(PBUH), tell anybody anything about the bible, when the first NT writing didnt even surface until 30-60yrs after his departure? The Bible as it is known in most parts wasnt even complete until several centuries later.

As far as Muslim immigration that started in the 1800's, but Muslims have been in America since the 1st slave ships hit the shores...

Furthermore, don't mix your perceptions and assumptions with what I actually wrote. There is no secret code in what I wrote. I meant what I said as I typed it and was quite clear, no need to associate your interpretations and try to apply them to me and tell me what im insinuating.

Lastly, let me make something clear since you don't know me, I am an American born and raised, I have served this country HONORABLY in the United States Marine Corps, and I currently serve this country in the Government.

As Iraq is concerned it was a lie, there never was no WMD, there was no Al-Qaeda connection, etc. the Neo-cons wanted Baghdad since the 1st war, I suggest you do a little research on this topic. Who ever said anyone was out to get anyone? Excuse my sarcasm, but I could care less if there was an anti-Islam agenda, Islam, can't be destroyed.

As far as Christianity and trick-or-treating, Santa, and the Easter Bunny is concerned, please show me a scripture where these actions are acceptable in Christianity? Where did Jesus(PBUH) tell his followers to do such things? There are plenty of Pagans on this board, so I will spare you the description, research the origins of Samhain, Yule, and Ostara and tell me how they apply to Christianity.

Wrong. There is an Old Testament and a New Testament. The New Testament is the "second half" of the Bible compromising the Christian faith.

If there were any, there were very, very few, and they had no significant impact.

..Uh, I don't know what you just said about assumptions and insinuations. Are you saying I'm misinterpreting what you're saying? If so, please, correct me.

I congratulate you on your service. It was a very brave and honorable thing of you. But, unfortunately, that has nothing to do with our argument.

Perhaps there was not.. there was evidence suggesting THERE WAS. And frankly, if you're not taking evidence from your government and other foreign agencies at face value, there's something wrong with you. You do care about anti-Islam sentiments, as you said "who cares anyway about those Muslim guys" or something to the effect.

OK, so I guess since Jesus never mentioned anything about being able to drive, I guess all Christians will have to continue on riding donkeys and camels to keep with the Christian faith and not sin. Just because he didn't mention something, doesn't automatically make it a sin. That's one of your largest misconceptions by far, Osiris.

The origins of Halloween are of witchcraft. Trick-or-treating has nothing to do with the true origins. It's simply going from house to house and getting candy.

Santa Clause is a creation of a similar vein, but this time in celebration of the birth of Christ, or CHRISTmas.

The Easter Bunny is for the celebration of Easter, which is the remembrance of Jesus Christ's death upon the cross, if I'm not mistaken.

But wait. You're probably of the opinion that Harry Potter is un-Christian too, huh?

 

[ZorCrow]

Rich, I don't mean any harm, but what are you talking about? How could Jesus(PBUH), tell anybody anything about the bible, when the first NT writing didnt even surface until 30-60yrs after his departure? The Bible as it is known in most parts wasnt even complete until several centuries later.

As far as Muslim immigration that started in the 1800's, but Muslims have been in America since the 1st slave ships hit the shores...

Furthermore, don't mix your perceptions and assumptions with what I actually wrote. There is no secret code in what I wrote. I meant what I said as I typed it and was quite clear, no need to associate your interpretations and try to apply them to me and tell me what im insinuating.

Lastly, let me make something clear since you don't know me, I am an American born and raised, I have served this country HONORABLY in the United States Marine Corps, and I currently serve this country in the Government.

As Iraq is concerned it was a lie, there never was no WMD, there was no Al-Qaeda connection, etc. the Neo-cons wanted Baghdad since the 1st war, I suggest you do a little research on this topic. Who ever said anyone was out to get anyone? Excuse my sarcasm, but I could care less if there was an anti-Islam agenda, Islam, can't be destroyed.

As far as Christianity and trick-or-treating, Santa, and the Easter Bunny is concerned, please show me a scripture where these actions are acceptable in Christianity? Where did Jesus(PBUH) tell his followers to do such things? There are plenty of Pagans on this board, so I will spare you the description, research the origins of Samhain, Yule, and Ostara and tell me how they apply to Christianity.

St. John chapter 8 verses 56-68


Jo 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Jo 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Jo 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Also, Colassians Chapter 1 verses 15-19

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell